How many sages were there?

[MrMosley]

A lot of people seem to think that there have been multiple sages over the series of Zelda games. This can be noted from the sages in Wind Waker (Makar and Medli), however, they were descendants of these sages, or reincarnations, whichever was the case.

But then there are the sages in Ocaina of Time. The symbols for these sages can be seen on the Medallions you recieve from them. They looked like this.

http://i37.tinypic.com/116q0qb.png
(sorry about the size and quality)


Now, as I was looking at my trophies in Super Smash Bros. the other day, I recognized something about them. They have those same medallion designs on their wardrobes.


http://i35.tinypic.com/2nla4x0.jpg
(Here we can only see one sage's medallion design well enough, but in the actual game, rotating the trophy reveals all the sages' designs)


Now from the pictures, we can see that in the Twilight Princess Sages, the one thats shown up front bears the Light Medallion.


The mystery here, is how these sages connect. Were they meant to be the same sages? Or were they reincarnated sages? If so, the why would they be in the same number as the original ones from OoT, and bear the same designs which in Twilight Princess, have pretty much no meaning?

[EponaOwns]

I'm not sure. the only sages I know is oot sages and there is actually 7 sages in oot. Zelda is one of them but doesn't give u a medallion. the owl was reincarnated(spelling) and I think all of them connect because if u think about it sheik was zelda and tetra was zelda and they were suppose to be hiding or something so zelda makers do have a few thingys up their sleeves

[Mehplep]

Sorry to say this, but I think this is pretty obvious for many Zelda-fans. THe Seven Sages, or the Seven Wise Men, were introduced in ALttP as the people that sealed away Ganon during the imprisoning war. These Seven Sages are, by most timeline theorys, the Seven Sages in OoT (all six medallions + Zelda), since most people see OoT take place in the imprisoning war. Their descendants were the seven maidens Link rescued in ALttP, which of one were Zelda herself. If Zelda should come from any family it would be most likely Zelda in OoTs family...

And then we have TP, witch (by most timeline theorys) take place between OoT and ALttP, in which we have seven Sages. ... does it ring a bell?

[Shadow Goris]

Yeah but in cheesewaker there are 9 sages:light, forest, fire, water, spirit, shadow, earth, and wind. However, one thing that puzzles me is that fado, a kokiri, was a sage. There were no kokiri in WW, there were koroks. Maybe that was before they tuned into korok?

[Inflexus]

To my recolection, there are no more than 7 sages(including Zelda) at any given time in any game. I havn't touched PH though.

[Dabombster]

They could be the same sages from OoT, but I highly doubt it. They may have the same symbols, but they could be descendants (or ancestors). The OoT sages were all from different races, the TP ones appear to all be from the same race.

[Inflexus]

They could be the same sages from OoT, but I highly doubt it. They may have the same symbols, but they could be descendants (or ancestors). The OoT sages were all from different races, the TP ones appear to all be from the same race.

That would make sense, except I don't necessaraly see them as ancestors. The ones in TP trancend race, and all look similar.

I would conclude that they are seperate storylines because of that, but I would suggest that they are all the same race within the context of TP.

[MrMosley]

One thing that I would think is possible is if, because the Sages are spiritual-like beings, that they were given all the same look in TP. All of the Sages, or Wisemen, in ALttP looked similar as well. Because of the symbols on the TP Sages, I first thought that they are the same spirits that inhabited the bodies of the Sages in OoT, but now in TP, they have regained their more spiritual look.

Like how the Sages in OoT didn't know they were sages until they died. Then, they were reborn as Sages, which is when they figured out who they really were. So my suggestion is that the sages are spirits who inhabit the bodies of actual beings, in OoT, it was races, and when they are needed to awaken, they awaken. Maybe at some point, during a period of peace in Hyrule, they decided that they weren't needed, and that they wanted to live normal lives with no memory of being sages. So, they decided to put their spirits inside the bodies of different races throughout Hyrule. It would explain why they were who they were in OoT.

Then, after OoT, I would guess that these Sages had to watch over the Sacred Realm where they sealed Ganon, and eventually the Realm of Twilight through the Mirror Chamber.

[Inflexus]

Like how the Sages in OoT didn't know they were sages until they died. Then, they were reborn as Sages, which is when they figured out who they really were.

That wouldn't add up though, because they never died, they were just spiritually awakened with the cleansing of the temple.

[MrMosley]

It was hinted at, at least I thought so, that they had died. Because each one entered the temple (maybe except for Saria, that one I don't quite remember) and tried to fight the boss or at least save the temple itself in some way, but were killed by the boss. I'm pretty positive Ruto and Impa done this, but I know that Darunia and Nabooru did.

[Shadow Goris]

I was wondering why would they add the extra 2 sages?

[Inflexus]

I was wondering why would they add the extra 2 sages?


I presume you're refferring to windwaker?

That's because they needed the game to be simplified, if you notice, there was no Goron sage in WW, which is unfortunate and confirms my theory about there being no truely connected timeline.

[Chrono]

It doesn't confirm anything you fool, TWW happens centuries after OoT.

Nintendo quote ; "The Wind Waker occurs hundreds of years after the events of Ocarina of Time"

[Inflexus]

It doesn't confirm anything you fool, TWW happens centuries after OoT.

Nintendo quote ; "The Wind Waker occurs hundreds of years after the events of Ocarina of Time"

Assuming you can cite that quote, then why did they need to get rid of the sages and then spawn 2 new ones?

And Nintendo hasn't been logically consistant, I've proven this.

[Chrono]

Why are you still arguing against the facts coming straight from Nintendo?

[Inflexus]

Why are you still arguing against the facts coming straight from Nintendo?

Because the facts that you claim come from Nintendo are rather inconsistant with any logic.

[Matthew_79]

Inflexus, Nintendo did say that.
And what they arnt incositent, its just not the full picture

Im just wondering, does that trophy show them wearing masks?

[Inflexus]

Inflexus, Nintendo did say that.
And what they arnt incositent, its just not the full picture


The plots of the games and the storylines that exist within the games also provide information, and that is inconsistant with what Nintendo has released. There is no valid logic to account for these claims.

[Crow_Krieger]

I would think the sages would be more like the pope (To relate it to a real life thing) and are more like the spiritual person of that particular thing and such.

Nintendo is never clear on certain things like this and there logic is flawed in a lot of ways. Like how you can kill Gandorf like what? Every Zelda game out there?

[Matthew_79]

Remeber when you get the mastersword in WW?

The stainglass windows in there show all the sages.

[zeypherlink]

The Seven Sages (OoT) = Seven Wise Men (ALttP) = Sages in TP
It's Zelda 101, guise.


That's because they needed the game to be simplified, if you notice, there was no Goron sage in WW, which is unfortunate and confirms my theory about there being no truely connected timeline.
Ignorant much?
There were only 2 Sages in TWW because uh, their purpose was to power the weakened Master Sword. The 7 Sages are long gone with the flooding of Hyrule, so why do you say there would be a Goron Sage.
Have you even beaten any Zelda games?

[MrMosley]

There were only two in WW because it was only necessary to show two of them. It dosen't mean that there aren't any more than that left. The sages can't die from the flood because they aren't necessarily mortal. Which is why I said in an earlier post that the characters who became sages apparently died in OoT, and reawoken as Sages.

But back to the two sages thing, they only needed to power the Master Sword. One sage turned out to be a Kokiri kid spirit which reawakened in Makar. The other was a Zora who reawoken within Medli. Saria, a Kokiri, and Ruto, a Zora, may have been of the first awoken sages, and were later reborn into these spirits we see in WW, thus being awoken or transplaced again within the two characters (Makar and Medli), in WW.

[blackice_cc]

There were only two in WW because it was only necessary to show two of them. It dosen't mean that there aren't any more than that left. The sages can't die from the flood because they aren't necessarily mortal. Which is why I said in an earlier post that the characters who became sages apparently died in OoT, and reawoken as Sages.

But back to the two sages thing, they only needed to power the Master Sword. One sage turned out to be a Kokiri kid spirit which reawakened in Makar. The other was a Zora who reawoken within Medli. Saria, a Kokiri, and Ruto, a Zora, may have been of the first awoken sages, and were later reborn into these spirits we see in WW, thus being awoken or transplaced again within the two characters (Makar and Medli), in WW.

Well, a couple of things Dark_link01. First, in TP one of the Sages is killed by Ganondorf, so that tells us that Sages aren't immortal. Second, well, the Kokiri spirit we see in WW seems to be a male, so that rules out Saria, and anyway Saria had green hair, when this guy is blond. Possible that the kokiri spirit in WW was an apprentice of Saria's or something. About the characters that become Sages in OoT dieing, then reawakening as Sages is an interesting theory, but there isn't really any way to prove it. I believe that the old Sages died in the flood of Hyrule, and that the 2 new ones were all that they needed at this point, because Ganondorf wasn't around. All that the Sages needed to do after Ganondorf returned was power up the Master sword, so only 2 of them were needed, where in OoT 7 were needed to lock him away.

[dumb180]

I think it's possible that several of the games have the same sages.

AoL's sage towns: The sages from OoT get towns named after them in this game. Since most people seem to think of AoL as being on the Child Timeline, that's a tad odd. The sages that Link awoke never sealed Ganondorf away. That was done by TP's sages after Ganondorf's failed execution. Nevertheless, we still have towns named after OoT's sages. I think it's be because TP's sages are the sages from OoT, only in spirit form.

I'm not sure if it continues into alttp, as it's clearly stated those sages are descendants. But it could be. They seem to transcend bodily form.

I can't speak with much authority on sages from WW, as I haven't played it. :(

[NULL]

Also, Somethign about WW. There was only 2 Temples, The Wind(?) Templte to the South, and the Earth Temple to the North. So only need for 2 sages. For some reason before the flood of Hyrule there was only two temples.

Pour example, The events after the CL of OOT can take place across a long amount of time, where ganon came back, started to take over the kingdom of Hyrule, and the time where the gods flooded Hyrule, so most the Temples/Sages would have been Destroyed/Killed (most temples except two, and all the sages were killed.)

Just a theory i'm throwing out there.

[Shadsie]

The wonkiness with the Sages and the AoL towns named for them could be proof of "no true Timeline" or of a linear Timeline.

*Dodges thrown garbage* or not.

Before anyone calls me a "fool" or lobs other random, uncalled-for insults, I've let it known many times that *I* really don't give a flying Deku nut about the Timeline. The Timeline could be anything to me. It could be a wheel within a wheel for all I care.

Split, Linear or Non-existant, I think the whole Sage-thing is just one of the running things of Zelda. The Zelda crew came up with it for A Link to the Past and just continued the concept in OoT, and so on. I'm not sure Nintendo cares about connecting them all as much as the fans do. Regarding TP's botched execution of Ganondorf - in trying to connect it to other games (OoT), it's kind of convulted, hard to make sense out of. And the TP sages are *weird.*

I think there could be any number of Sages in Hyrule - depending upon the need. I think the "main" ones are the 7, but, sometimes, a "Sage of Winds" or a "Sage of Earth" is needed and thus deputized. I don't think they necessarily die to become Sages (Medli and Makar didn't have to die in WW, and, in fact, Laruto and Fado *lost* their Sage-powers/position when they were killed)! The OoT Sages might have all died - or they may have simply been awakened and bid to go to the spirit realm. That was never clear to me.

The TP sages could be some kind of "old sages" - spirit beings who carry on their duties and are in thier positions because the OoT race-Sages didn't get awakened in their timeline.

Or, maybe they are the OoT Sages, in a "pure spirit" form - which is why they appear uniform, rather than in the forms we know from OoT. I don't think the OoT Sages necessiarily needed to die to become Sages (as I said above), and perhaps they did get awakened to their duties - in a much gentler way than what happened in the game in the Adult Timeline (using the Split Timeline model). Becoming a Sage might be like becoming a nun or priest - a "calling you feel" and a comitment you make. In other words, Saria didn't have to get napped by evil Forest Temple monsters and have the temple cleared, she just had to feel a particularly strange call while playing in the forest one day... ?

[Y2K3]

About there being only 2 sages in WW, I read somewhere (can't remember where) that there was supposed to be another dungeon, but it ended up getting cut in the end. If this is the case, perhaps that's why there is no goron sage. Just a thought.

[Locke]

Focusing on the CT for now, it is important to note that the Sages are given their powers through a spiritual connection with the goddesses. The goddesses choose one representative member of each race to form this connection with. In the CT, Ganondorf doesn't get a chance to gain power, so the goddesses see no need in appointing new Sages. (Now, someone will have to remind me if the scene in TP shows Ganondorf being executed/sealed by the Sages, or just by the King or something.) The sage figures that appear in TP are the 'spiritual connections' that I mentioned earlier, without hosts.


Now for the AT, the 7 Sages of OoT were awakened with Link's help (well, really, 5, as Rauru and Zelda were already aware). They then sealed Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. After a while, the goddesses appoint 7 new Sages, including Raruto, Fodo, and probably a Zelda that doesn't appear in any game (except maybe AoL BS, now that I think about it?). (That's 14 so far, 9 or 10 of which appear in-game) Now these new Sages may or may not be literal descendents of the OoT ones. Anyway, Ganondorf escapes from the Sacred Realm, and with no hero to stop him, kills all the sages (and maybe puts Zelda to sleep...probably not). The people pray, Hyrule is flooded.

More years go by, Ganondorf escapes again (partially), and the goddesses appoint seven more sages, including Medli, Makar, and maybe Tetra/Zelda (that is never actually stated in-game, but I'm assuming that since the original Zelda was a Sage, the goddesses would continue to appoint Hylian Sages from the royal family). (That's 21 now, 11-13 appearing in-game.) Wind Waker only showed the two Sages just to make the game easier to make and easier to play. (With 5/6 dungeons already, 5 more would be way too much, plus they'd have to either remove islands to make room for the new temples or make the grid 8x8, which would be an insane amount of work.)

Depending on whether the BS of LttP is the SW or not, the Sages spoken of could be the OoT ones, or different sages that didn't appear in any games. That would make 28 total, 11-13 of which being in-game, if you don't count the 7 maidens as Sages.


In my timelne, AoL is in the AT, so the names of the towns make sense (though that's far from the only reason I put it there), and LttP is in the CT, OoT not being the SW, meaning the sages in the BS of LttP don't appear in other games.


So basically, I think the Sages are mortal, and there can be any number of them, but 11-13 of them appear in games, depending on if you count Tetra or the Zelda from AoL's BS.

[Axle the Beast]

Wanted to point some things out and respond to a couple of comments throughout this thread that caught my attention...

First off, everyone seems to be forgetting one major thing. In OoT, there was a lot of references to other sages. Two in particular. First of all, it has been stated by the Gossip Stones in game that Kaepora Gaebora (the owl) is the reincarnation of an ancient sage. This immediately disproves the concept of the sages being spiritual entities who occasionally reside in bodies because Kaepora Gaebora existed at the same time as all 7 of the sages did. If they were always the same entity, the owl and the sages could not exist at the same time.

Also, when first meeting him/her, Sheik states that there were previous sages. I can't quite recall if they died normally, disappeared, or were killed by Ganondorf, but he does state that the sages you go around rescuing are new sages.



Yeah but in cheesewaker there are 9 sages:light, forest, fire, water, spirit, shadow, earth, and wind. However, one thing that puzzles me is that fado, a kokiri, was a sage. There were no kokiri in WW, there were koroks. Maybe that was before they tuned into korok?
That's not true. Only 2 sages appear in the game, Earth and Wind. Theoretically Zelda could also be considered a sage, but that only brings the count to 3. Also note that both the Earth and Wind sages that existed prior were dead. So the fact that Fado was a Kokiri is clearly because he died prior to the Kokiri's transformation into the Koroks.



It was hinted at, at least I thought so, that they had died. Because each one entered the temple (maybe except for Saria, that one I don't quite remember) and tried to fight the boss or at least save the temple itself in some way, but were killed by the boss. I'm pretty positive Ruto and Impa done this, but I know that Darunia and Nabooru did.
You're right about one thing: that they all entered the temple to defeat the boss or save the temple. To say they died, however, is a bit of a stretch IMO. I always assumed they were captured. Either way, they all appear in the Chamber of Sages, and while that doesn't necessarily mean they're alive, it stands out to me that Link and Zelda have both appeared there, and that it is specifically stated to be a physical location in the Temple of Light within the Sacred Realm.

Saria disappears. You never see her outside of the Chamber of Sages as Adult Link. Darunia goes off to fight the boss. His fate is unclear. Ruto disappears in the temple; it never says she encounters Morpha. Impa simply enters the temple to stop Bongo Bongo. Again, what happens afterward isn't clear. Finally, Nabooru encounters Twinrova, but is captured and mind controlled, and turned into an Iron Knuckle. After she is defeated by Link, she is captured again. It could be said that she was killed, but I'm pretty sure I remember Koume and Kotake saying something specific about either brainwashing her again or that she would still be useful.

So, it's possible, they could have died, but there's no conclusive evidence and it's strongly suggested that at least one definitely survived. If she wasn't dead, I don't see how the others could be because their fates all seemed to be the same.



I was wondering why would they add the extra 2 sages?
It's first important to note that Earth and Wind are major elements. In fact, the real elements as classified in mythologies and alchemy almost always include those two elements. The only occurrence of elements in real history I can think of that doesn't include one is Chinese Alchemy, which removes Wind in favor of Metal. Regardless, those are major elements. Their exclusion from OoT is actually pretty strange. It's actually true that the Forest Temple in OoT was originally going to be the Wind Temple, but that was cut out.

Basically, my theory is that in order to be more artistically creative, they included new temples that hadn't been done yet. Both elements make a lot of sense as they're major ones. Also, Wind was to appear in OoT, and is a major element of the game. Earth is essentially the opposite of Wind, so it makes a lot of sense as well.

As for what that means to the timeline and to the sages, well... I see it possibly as two elements and sages who existed in OoT but never appeared (unlikely, IMO). The other two possibilities is that they weren't "official" sages, and served a completely separate purpose than the sages of OoT, OR the sages themselves evolved over time: into different elements. The other elements might have been more or less phased out, or they simply didn't appear in the story. The inclusion of different races as the sages is irrelevant because it's clear that the sages have been of various races; sometimes all Hylian.

This game also strongly disproves the concept of the sages being the same entities every time, because the ghosts, specifically, of the two old sages, Laruto and Fado, appear at the same time as their living descendants. They are also clearly stated to be descendants, not reincarnations, and they even speak to their ancestors.



Assuming you can cite that quote, then why did they need to get rid of the sages and then spawn 2 new ones?

And Nintendo hasn't been logically consistant, I've proven this.
Not sure about his specific quote, but that information is correct. Within the game itself, the King of the Red Lions specifically states that it is hundreds of years since the events of OoT. To not believe the developers is one thing (actually, I would support you there, because they do contradict the crap out of themselves), but this is straight from the game itself.

While the games have been unclear at times in how they relate to each other, I can't recall them ever blatantly contradicting one another, so I think this to be pretty solid evidence. It also makes sense thinking about it logically. Consider the changes in the world and the things people remember, hundreds of years sounds perfectly accurate.

[zc16-rmeppelink]

I think that I heard somewhere that there were 7 of them

[Zarom]

I think that I heard somewhere that there were 7 of them

True. In OOT, there is seven sages. Rauru, Saria, Darunia, Ruto, Nabooru, Impa and Zelda. Zelda is the seventh sage, as she herself claims.

Now, I think that it's more likely that there are multiples sages. We have the seven sages in OOT, then Kaepora Gaebora (the Owl) which is the reincarnation of an ancient sage. And the two sages in WW. Fado the Wind Sage, is not Saria, because he is a boy and he has blond hair. Laruto could be Ruto, but I don't think that's possible. I think Nintendo wanted to make two new sages, rather than taking old ones. Also, those two are respectively the Wind and the Earth Sage, and not the Forest and Water. ;)

In TP, which is believed to be on the child timeline, the sages were the previous sages before OOT. And Kaepora could be one of them, since he was probably from that era of sages.

I might be missing a few sages that appear in other games, but that's pretty much what I know.

[Axle the Beast]

True. In OOT, there is seven sages. Rauru, Saria, Darunia, Ruto, Nabooru, Impa and Zelda. Zelda is the seventh sage, as she herself claims.

Now, I think that it's more likely that there are multiples sages. We have the seven sages in OOT, then Kaepora Gaebora (the Owl) which is reincarnaion of an ancient sages. And the two sages in WW. Fado the Wind Sage, is not Saria, because he is a boy and he has blond hair. Laruto could be Ruto, but I don't think that's possible. I think Nintendo wanted to make two new sages, rather than taking old ones. Also, those two are respectively the Wind and the Earth Sage, and not the Forest and Water. ;)

In TP, which is believed to be on the child timeline, the sages were the previous sages before OOT. And Kaepora could be one of them, since he was probably from that era of sages.

I might be missing a few sages that appear in other games, but that's pretty much what I know.
Ah! You raise a good point. I believe I recall Sheik saying it was Ganondorf who killed the old sages, so according to the timeline split, they probably wouldn't have died in TP's timeline. So it could be the same ones. However, TP might take place too long after OoT for that to be possible. I personally tend to think TP takes place hundreds of years later, so it's hard to say. Either way, it's clear that there are always new sages to succeed old ones, so the existence of the sages in TP still makes sense.

I don't think Kaepora Gaebora could be from that generation, because of the specific language "reincarnation of an ancient sage", implying it was one from quite a long time ago. There's also the fact that Kaepora Gaebora is flying around, fully grown, before Ganondorf became king. I don't see how it could work out.

[Master Kokiri 9]

Well I may have a potential answer as to how these sages connect.

First of all I'll just exempt the Hylian sages (Zelda and Rauru) because according to my theory the seven sages were all originally hylian.

Okay so in OoT there are seven sages, two Hylians (Zelda and Rauru), one Goron (Darunia), one Zora (Ruto), one Sheikah (Impa), one Kokiri (Saria), and one Gerudo.

Now I believe it may be possible that the Hylians were the first race of Hyrule because according to most accounts of the Goddesses creating Hyrule and the Hylians they seem to have only created the Hylians. I believe that it may be possible that the Hylians evolved and adapted to different environments of Hyrule. Like for instance a group of Hylian children met the Deku Tree and he began to watch over them in the forest, granting them eternal youth and everlasting peace and safety (at least until OoT), thus crafting the Kokiri way of life. And likewise with the Zoras.

Now however without a guardian deity how would a Hylian adapt into a new race you might ask? Well I believe that the Hylians, when faced with a new environment to adapt to, and no guardian deity it may be possible that they altered themselves to adapt quicker. And this may be possible seeing as Hylians do seem to show that they are capable of altering themselves (Zelda magically becomes a Shiekah).

And what about the Wind and Earth sages? Well I believe that when the Master Sword was created they created the Earth and Wind Temples to keep the Master Sword's power and that the sages passed down the duty of doing this along with their instruments to their descendants and between OoT and WW we know that Ganondorf killed the Earth and Wind sages to prevent the Master Sword from keeping it's evil banishing powers.

However admittedly there is a hole in my theory that represents itself in ALttP. Or is there? I have an explanation for that as well. Okay so if the sages over the generations, evolved into the various races of OoT then how might you ask would you place ALttP on the timeline? Well we can see that in ALttP there is a lack of Gorons, Shiekah, and Kokiri and the only Zoras are monsters. However I rule out the Zora that gives you flippers as a civil zora because well he seems like a monster himself and really he seems to only be nice because you satisfied his greed for rupees.

Now however I figure that ALttP goes first on the timeline (with the seal war behind it) before OoT. But wait what's this? If ALttP goes before OoT on the timeline then why is it Ganon instead of Ganondorf? Well, I can explain. You see, I believe that ALttP goes on the timeline hundreds of years before OoT meaning there would be enough time for the events leading to OoT to happen.

Now then that's all for now folks.

[Locke]

We have the seven sages in OOT, then Kaepora Gaebora (the Owl) which is reincarnaion of an ancient sages.
reincarnation of a sage, but not a sage himself. Perhaps the ancient sage was a particularly powerful one who managed to retain some of the spiritual connection in his future life (much like Qui-Gon/Ben/Yoda/Anikin overcame death in Star Wars). But I don't think Kaepora Gaebora itself should be considered a Sage.



Now I believe it may be possible that the Hylians were the first race of Hyrule because according to most accounts of the Goddesses creating Hyrule and the Hylians they seem to have only created the Hylians. I believe that it may be possible that the Hylians evolved and adapted to different environments of Hyrule. Like for instance a group of Hylian children met the Deku Tree and he began to watch over them in the forest, granting them eternal youth and everlasting peace and safety (at least until OoT), thus crafting the Kokiri way of life. And likewise with the Zoras.
I think Nintendo's aversion to copying modern religions would rule out evolution.



However admittedly there is a hole in my theory that represents itself in ALttP. Or is there? I have an explanation for that as well. Okay so if the sages over the generations, evolved into the various races of OoT then how might you ask would you place ALttP on the timeline? Well we can see that in ALttP there is a lack of Gorons, Shiekah, and Kokiri and the only Zoras are monsters. ... Now however I figure that ALttP goes first on the timeline (with the seal war behind it) before OoT.
Or LttP takes place during a time when the Hylians are particularly powerful, so the goddesses bestow the powers of Sages to them alone (or vice-versa, goddesses give power so Hylians prosper more than other races).
Or the simple explanation that Nintendo hadn't really developed the races enough at that point.
Of course, I don't think these suggestions are any better (or worse) than your own, just other options to consider.


And what about the Wind and Earth sages? Well I believe that when the Master Sword was created they created the Earth and Wind Temples to keep the Master Sword's power and that the sages passed down the duty of doing this along with their instruments to their descendants and between OoT and WW we know that Ganondorf killed the Earth and Wind sages to prevent the Master Sword from keeping it's evil banishing powers.
I believe that the Sages of Earth and Wind are descendants/heirs of the Sages of Water and Forest. The goddesses were forced to tweak their positions after flooding Hyrule. They didn't want there to be a Sage of Water for the same reason they changed the Zoras into the Rito: That would bring them too close to Hyrule. As for the Sage of Forests, there wasn't much forest left to be sage of, most of it being flooded. Plus wind becomes a much more prevalent element (it and water being just about the only things you can find at sea), not to mention the title of the game...

I also believe that the other 5 sages still exist in WW, one being Tetra/Zelda, the other four not being shown in the game for development and gameplay reasons. I think they all prayed for the power of the Master Sword, they were all killed by Ganondorf in the BS, and Link must awaken all 7 of the new ones, only 3 being shown in the game.

If the Earth and Wind Sages were created at the time of the forging of the MS, then they'd also have to be around during OoT. Of course you could use the same argument I used for WW, but I find it easier to explain 7 sages (one for each race, plus one extra for Hylians, the superior race) than 9. Plus I think that since the MS was such a big part of OoT the developers wouldn't have been able to avoid the appearance of the other 2 sages in at least some little way.

[Master Kokiri 9]

I think Nintendo's aversion to copying modern religions would rule out evolution.

Well this actually isn't necessarily true. You see everybody adapts to their environment and no God or Goddess or other force can stop this. This is known as evolution. And who's to say the Hylians didn't speed up the process with magic like I believe the zoras did during the Great Flood.




Or LttP takes place during a time when the Hylians are particularly powerful, so the goddesses bestow the powers of Sages to them alone (or vice-versa, goddesses give power so Hylians prosper more than other races).
Or the simple explanation that Nintendo hadn't really developed the races enough at that point.
Of course, I don't think these suggestions are any better (or worse) than your own, just other options to consider.

Yeah it might be possible that ALttP took place when the Hylians were powerful and suppressed most other races. However if this was true we'd see Skull Kids and Kokiri in the Lost Woods probably and last I checked there were none in the entire game.



I believe that the Sages of Earth and Wind are descendants/heirs of the Sages of Water and Forest. The goddesses were forced to tweak their positions after flooding Hyrule. They didn't want there to be a Sage of Water for the same reason they changed the Zoras into the Rito: That would bring them too close to Hyrule. As for the Sage of Forests, there wasn't much forest left to be sage of, most of it being flooded. Plus wind becomes a much more prevalent element (it and water being just about the only things you can find at sea), not to mention the title of the game...

I never thought about that Locke. I can see the Forest Sage becoming the Wind Sage but not the Water Sage becoming the Earth Sage. Also I've always thought there was a force field around Sunken Hyrule that prevented others from seeing it and entering it unless they did what Link did but then there would be good reason (which when Link did it there was).


I also believe that the other 5 sages still exist in WW, one being Tetra/Zelda, the other four not being shown in the game for development and gameplay reasons. I think they all prayed for the power of the Master Sword, they were all killed by Ganondorf in the BS, and Link must awaken all 7 of the new ones, only 3 being shown in the game.

Yeah I think the other sages just weren't present in the game.


If the Earth and Wind Sages were created at the time of the forging of the MS, then they'd also have to be around during OoT. Of course you could use the same argument I used for WW, but I find it easier to explain 7 sages (one for each race, plus one extra for Hylians, the superior race) than 9. Plus I think that since the MS was such a big part of OoT the developers wouldn't have been able to avoid the appearance of the other 2 sages in at least some little way.

Well not necessarily. Indeed in OoT the Master Sword was a big part of the gameplay but it wasn't that much part of the story like it was in WW. Did Link and Navi search for the Master Sword? Nope. Theey found it 'on accident' in the Temple of Time. Did Link and KoRL search for it in WW? Yep. Half the game was spent on gaining the 'item that can banish Ganon'. Although it would be cool if those sages were present in OoT.

[Locke]

Yeah it might be possible that ALttP took place when the Hylians were powerful and suppressed most other races. However if this was true we'd see Skull Kids and Kokiri in the Lost Woods probably and last I checked there were none in the entire game.
I could use the same argument I used for the other 5 sages in WW plus the point that this was an early game and Nintendo hadn't developed the Kokiri yet to counter that.



I never thought about that Locke. I can see the Forest Sage becoming the Wind Sage but not the Water Sage becoming the Earth Sage. Also I've always thought there was a force field around Sunken Hyrule that prevented others from seeing it and entering it unless they did what Link did but then there would be good reason (which when Link did it there was).
That force field was around Ganondorf's castle in order to keep Link out.
Though I agree the goddesses could easily have cast a spell to keep Hyrule invisible, but then you have the problem of the Zoras turning into the Rita. Using your evolution argument, one would think they'd thrive in the prevalent water, so why would they change their form on their own?



Well not necessarily. Indeed in OoT the Master Sword was a big part of the gameplay but it wasn't that much part of the story like it was in WW. Did Link and Navi search for the Master Sword? Nope. Theey found it 'on accident' in the Temple of Time. Did Link and KoRL search for it in WW? Yep. Half the game was spent on gaining the 'item that can banish Ganon'. Although it would be cool if those sages were present in OoT.
A very good point

[Master Kokiri 9]

That force field was around Ganondorf's castle in order to keep Link out.
Though I agree the goddesses could easily have cast a spell to keep Hyrule invisible, but then you have the problem of the Zoras turning into the Rita. Using your evolution argument, one would think they'd thrive in the prevalent water, so why would they change their form on their own?

Well I'm pretty sure that the Hyrule civil Zoras from OoT and TP are freshwater amphibious beings (beings that semi-live in lake,river, and pond water without salt) while the Terminan civil Zoras from MM are saltwater amphibious beings (which are the same as freshwater zoras but live on saltwater) and we know oceans are made up of saltwater. If you recall real world biology most of the time if a freshwater fish or amphibian comes into contact with saltwater it would resound a violent reaction which may result in serious injury or more likely death and vice versa with saltwater fish/amphibians and freshwater (however sharks are able to switch without these side effects but zoras may not).

Next is water pressure. Now again recalling real world physics water is heavier than air and in oceans things get pretty deep. And if the Great Flood made Hyrule's tallest mountains mere tiny islands that would take trillions upon trillions of water right? Yep. Okay so let's sum up the unlikeliness of zoras being able to overcome the freshwater/saltwater thing and being able to swim in the sea. Now compared to the lakes most Hyrule civil Zoras would be used to the zoras would be crushed under the immense water pressure and die.

So what do the zoras do in order to survive? Simple. They devolve (according to my 'all races of Hyrule originate from the hylians' theory) back into hylians with the use of magic and climb the mountain that becomes Dragon Roost. There they meet Valoo and like it happened with Jabu Jabu Valoo grants them mastery over the air (wings) and thus the Rito way of life is born.

And finally the Goddesses, before sinking Hyrule, told everybody to take refuge on the mountaintops of Hyrule and this very likely applied to the zoras as well as the Hylians and the Kokiri.

Also I know the zora warriors from PH are going to be in your next post on this thread so I'll explain them while I'm at it. First of all they are not from the same world that Hyrule was in. They are in the Ocean King's Ocean which I believe may be Termina meaning the zoras there are saltwater based.

[Locke]

Upon further research, I have determined that it is impossible to prove you wrong. However, it is also impossible to prove me wrong. One can only provide alternative possibilities. And many are still arguing on whether or not the Zoras even became the Rito in the first place.

What was this thread about again? ..Oh, yeah. Sages.
Well, I think it's quite obvious that the Wind Sage is a descendant of the Forest Sage, so I see no reason why not to assume that the Earth Sage is a descendant of the Water Sage.

[Mikenike]

All of the sages in OOT stay the sages until they decide not to be. Whether or not these are present in every game I believe that there will always be 7 original sages. They each control something and keep things normal.

[Chrono]

They were chosen as the sages, they don't make that decision themselves.

[Ikana]

some people think in oot when link and zelda go back in time after they beat ganondorf the sages in the adult time line don't become sages.But I don't know since they are seen on the glass windows in wind waker.

[Mikenike]

They were chosen as the sages, they don't make that decision themselves.

Once again, I didn't say it was fact. Pay attention to the "I believe" Not " I know"

[Chrono]

"All of the sages in OOT stay the sages until they decide not to be." That statement does not use the word believe, think, or whatever else.

[Locke]

some people think in oot when link and zelda go back in time after they beat ganondorf the sages in the adult time line don't become sages.But I don't know since they are seen on the glass windows in wind waker.
Zelda doesn't go back in time, just Link.
Do people really think that? Or did they mean child timeline? It makes perfect sense for them not to awaken in the CT, but as you say, not the AT.

[Axle the Beast]

some people think in oot when link and zelda go back in time after they beat ganondorf the sages in the adult time line don't become sages.But I don't know since they are seen on the glass windows in wind waker.
?

There are two timelines. The Adult and Child Timelines. The Adult Timeline goes with the ending of OoT, with Link defeating Ganondorf and what happened after that. This is the one where the OoT sages became sages, and hundreds of years later, WW occurs.

The Child Timeline goes with the Link who went back in time and changed the past. After this (the exact amount of time is unclear, could be a very short or very long amount of time) is TP (with MM in between as a side story). Since the events of OoT resulting in the new sages never happened, it's probable that they never became sages at all, although it's not impossible.

Point is, using Wind Waker as an argument does work because Wind Waker and that theory itself are are separate timelines. ;)



"All of the sages in OOT stay the sages until they decide not to be." That statement does not use the word believe, think, or whatever else.
He never said he actually used those words. You don't need to use the words "believe" or "think" to express something that is your opinion and not a proven fact. Although it does sound a bit like he's stating it like a fact, it's still apparent now from what he's said that he didn't intend it as such.

[Chrono]

If he didn't intend to do it, then I am curious why he is doing it in every single thread he posts in.