What Makes the Miyamoto Order Invalid.

[Caleb, Of Asui]

Nintendo Power: Where do all the Zelda games fall into place when arranged chronologically by their stories?
Miyamoto: Ocarina of Time is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time.



This is the oldest official timeline quote that I know of. It comes directly from Miyamoto, who's at the head of the whole series, yet so many people now so easily disregard it. Why?

Here are a few points I'd like to make about the subject:

1. Miyamoto's Intentions: What's the reason for Miyamoto to tell us this order if it's invalid? Do Zelda fans honestly agree that the series' creator would deliberately mislead us? He can't have remembered incorrectly from a company meeting - he's the one that made the decision on this order in the first place.

2. OoT-LttP Connection: I do know that the whole timeline debate started with a supposed connection between Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past. Most timeline theorists now, with the way the timeline splits, consider this a false connection. I think the reason Nintendo made Ocarina of Time similar to A Link to the Past's backstory was to get people thinking about the story more (which definitely worked). Then, once that was established, Miyamoto came out and said "this is the order." It would have been less appropriate before that, because nobody cared.

3. Twilight Princess supports this order, given the location of the Triforce. Let's look at how it flows with both orders:

OoT: Triforce is in the Sacred Realm.
TP: Reveals that it was removed and split during OoT, and is still split.
LoZ/AoL: Has been split since "MANY YEARS AGO" and is rejoined in the story.
LttP Backstory: Ganon is trapped in the Sacred Realm with the Triforce, which he uses to make the Sacred Realm the Dark World.
LttP: All three pieces with Ganon, trapped in the Dark World. Later retrieved by Link.

The other way...

OoT: Triforce is in the Sacred Realm.
TP: Reveals that it was removed and split during OoT, and is still split.
LttP Backstory: Ganon is trapped in the Sacred Realm with the Triforce, which he uses to make the Sacred Realm the Dark World.
LttP: All three pieces with Ganon, trapped in the Dark World. Later retrieved by Link.
LoZ/AoL: Has been split since "MANY YEARS AGO" and is rejoined in the story.

Which one fits better? The first one. The Triforce flows very simply and exactly from one location to the next. In the second, it jumps around quite a lot and many more stories have to be created outside of the canon to support the order.

4. Childish attitude towards Miyamoto. I was away from the computer for a bit during this post, and during that bit, my little 7-year-old sister and my dad got into a small argument about her having her pillowcase downstairs. Basically, my sister said "there was no rule about it", my dad said "I said it was a rule that pillowcase stays upstairs", and my sister said "That's a rule Dad made, it doesn't count."

Those who disregard what Miyamoto says about the timeline are doing the same thing as my 7-year-old sister.

[MrMosley]

I'm going to have to be 7 years old then I guess, lawl. I can't say why Miyamoto would have stated that. Your theory about the Triforce works quite well too. But I have to go with the box of ALttP. It clearly says the "predecessors of Link and Zelda". The only Link and Zelda known at this point were the ones from LoZ/AoL, so that tells us that ALttP is a distant prequel.

Also, ALttP (P for "Past"), regardless of what the Japanese title is, makes reference to a past event. I can't provide a quote or anything, but I did hear one time that ALttP's intention was to give some backstory to Hyrule, and how Ganon came to be. That's exactly what that game does. It tells about Ganondorf, the King of Theives, and how he ended up becoming Ganon, the King of Evil. It gives us some kind of story to original games since there really wasn't much in them. It fits a lot better as a distant prequel.

You used the placement of the Triforce as an example. Well, I'm going to use the placement of the Master Sword, and some apparent facts about Ganon/dorf, as my examples.

OoT - MS is in the ToT. Ganondorf makes an attempt at stealing the Triforce (first Ganondorf event)

TP - MS is still where the ToT used to be (now in ruins), and slowly being covered in a forest. Ganondorf prosecuted for his actions, somehow obtains the ToP. Apparently loses the ToP at the end.

FSA - Master Sword is avoided, probably because it was the Four Sword that was the main focus of the game. Ganondorf is talked about as going to the "pyramid" and stealing the "Trident of Power", thus becoming Ganon.

ALttP - MS is in a forest (Lost Woods). Ganon has been sealed inside the SR (in the BS of this game). In the SR, we see the Pyramid (where Ganon stays), and he has the Trident still.

LoZ/AoL - MS is no where to be found. Ganon is still a pig/beast.

At the very end of ALttP, it says that "The Master Sword Sleeps... FOREVER!". I believe that, according to my timeline, this has been true thus far (aside from a cameo appearance in OoX). My CT would go like this:

OoT/MM--TP--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA--OoX--LoZ/AoL (OoX may come after LoZ/AoL, but that's a different discussion)

Other than that Miyamoto quote about the timeline, nothing so far has led me to believe that ALttP could be after LoZ/AoL. No games that have came out since then have hinted towards that, unless you consider your Triforce placement. However, I consider my MS placement over that, and TP put the continuation of the MS' placement from OoT to ALttP in very good perspective.

[Midna666]

The reason why I think the Miyamoto Timeline is invalid is because Miyamoto said it back in the 90's when NOA did a bad job translating things.
It's pretty well known that NOA messed up at translating a lot of things(like ALTTP's backstory).

Also there were a lot less Zelda games back then as well.
Back then everyone thought that OOT was the Seal War that ALTTP talked about.
Today there are a lot more Zelda games, and the Miyamoto Timeline just does not fit anymore.

That's why I think the Miyamoto Timeline is invalid.

[Skull_Kid]

Some of the quotes were later contradicted with the release of newer games, of course.
Also, if you look closely, in OoT, the MS is in the Temple of Time, in TP you see it in it's ruins, wich, apparently, are in the Lost Woods, due to the music(maybe with the course of time, the woods spreaded far and wide), and it's location in ALttP is very similar to it's location in TP, except that all ruins are gone except for the altar.
Also, MS's appearance in OoX is not to be considered canonical, it only appears via Passwords, so I highly doubt it's canonicity

[Caleb, Of Asui]

I can see what you're all saying. There's one thing I'd like to make sure of for myself, though. A lot of you are saying it was probably mistranslated. (I suppose with a lot of things in language like Japanese and Chinese written in backwards sentence structure, this could lead to mistakes from bad translators.) But, what exactly was Miyamoto saying if it was incorrectly translated? Is the original Japanese quote somewhere on the internet? If we had that, I'm sure someone on the forums knows enough Japanese to make a better translation.

[Zemen]

I can see what you're all saying. There's one thing I'd like to make sure of for myself, though. A lot of you are saying it was probably mistranslated. (I suppose with a lot of things in language like Japanese and Chinese written in backwards sentence structure, this could lead to mistakes from bad translators.) But, what exactly was Miyamoto saying if it was incorrectly translated? Is the original Japanese quote somewhere on the internet? If we had that, I'm sure someone on the forums knows enough Japanese to make a better translation.

I honestly don't think he was mistranslated. Other than mixing up ALTTP by putting it after LoZ/AoL, his timeline easily could have been the correct one AT ITS TIME. With plenty of games out since that timeline, a lot of stuff he has said is overruled by in game events that make his quotes false. The back of the original ALTTP box says the characters are predecessors to Link and Zelda. There were only one Link and Zelda at that time so it has to go before LoZ/AoL. I understand that Miyamoto is the leader of the series, but no matter how many times he tells you that ALTTP goes after LoZ/AoL, the text on every single box in the world won't magically change to ancestors. The game is always going to be more canon than ANYTHING the creators say and the games have done a fine job of destroying the Miyamoto Timeline.

[Caleb, Of Asui]

the games have done a fine job of destroying the Miyamoto Timeline.

Didn't I just say that Twilight Princess SUPPORTS the Miyamoto Timeline?

Something I'd like to say about the back of the box: It's the BACK of a BOX! Since when did the people who wrote what's back there ever care about what they're writing? It also happens to say "Link ventures back to the land of Hyrule," right before the predecessor thing. (Image (http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=1331&fullsize=1)) This would suggest they're the same Link and Zelda as the first two games, but we all know they're not. That's never debated.

Another thing regarding the box quote: "predecessors" may very well have been a deliberate mistake. The same kind of thing happened in the second Harry Potter book, where the author wrote "ancestor" where she meant to write "descendant." Fans of that series got worked up in the same way and began theorising about time travel, but the author said later that it was a deliberate mistake. Perhaps the same kind of thing happened here. I won't say for sure, though, since I still stand by the people writing the box not knowing or caring what they were writing.

I'll move a little bit away from the box and focus more on Zemen's post. It seems like you're suggesting that at some point they decided to entirely rewrite the timeline from they had in the first place. I'd like to know when exactly you think this happened. I would like to see what evidence you can provide that this actually happened.

[FinalFantasy]

The SNES box may have been a mistake as someone said before me, but I think I have heard that it is the GBA Manual that is canon now. I have not read the GBA Manual but if it was a mistake, they may have corrected when the game was released for the GBA.

[Chrono]

I will tell you what exactly made his original planned timeline invalid...

Eiji Aonuma.

Nuff said. :D

[MrMosley]

Didn't I just say that Twilight Princess SUPPORTS the Miyamoto Timeline?

Miyamoto's timeline puts ALttP at the very end. ALttP talks about Ganondorf trying to steal the Triforce from the SR and being sealed within it. That is where he became Ganon UNTIL ALttP. That is why Ganon is still in the SR (now the Dark World), in ALttP. If LoZ came before it, Ganon being in there wouldn't make sense. TP doesn't do anything to help this either. The fact is that Ganon stayed in the SR until ALttP from the time he was sealed. He went in a human and became a beast (permanently?). So it only makes sense that the games where we see him in his pig form come after ALttP.


I'll move a little bit away from the box and focus more on Zemen's post. It seems like you're suggesting that at some point they decided to entirely rewrite the timeline from they had in the first place. I'd like to know when exactly you think this happened. I would like to see what evidence you can provide that this actually happened.

The Miyamoto timeline never made sense; Not then, and not now. The timeline was rewritten because games were added, but OoT, ALttP, LoZ and AoL still come in that order, there are just games in between, before, and after them now.

[Caleb, Of Asui]

If the Miyamoto order never made sense, why was it even there in the first place?

Honestly, though, I am almost convinced that the order is LttP then LoZ - it does fit in numerous ways (I read the topic about the reason the title is A Link to the Past) - but I'm not willing to say that's the correct reason until somebody gives a legitimate reason for Miyamoto to give this order when it's incorrect.

[Steve]

The Miyamoto timeline never made sense; Not then, and not now. The timeline was rewritten because games were added, but OoT, ALttP, LoZ and AoL still come in that order, there are just games in between, before, and after them now.
Exactly, and it would seem that people think that what he has said, still stands. His statement was years ago, and is far outdated, but yes, the basic order is still intact only with filler games in between. The problem that is created, however, is that Link's Awakening is supposed to be a direct sequel to A Link to the Past, but that's a completely different thing.

[Zemen]

you're suggesting that at some point they decided to entirely rewrite the timeline from they had in the first place. I'd like to know when exactly you think this happened. I would like to see what evidence you can provide that this actually happened.

So you want to know when this exactly happened? When they decided to rewrite the timeline? I have an extremely easy answer for you. It was when they decided to add more games to the series and when they decided there was a split timeline. And as other people have said, the basic order is still there (OoT-ALTTP-LoZ/AoL) in the same exact order just with other games in between them.

[Caleb, Of Asui]

It was when they decided to add more games to the series and when they decided there was a split timeline.

Good job, Zemen. You have me convinced, and that makes perfect sense. To add, I also think that Miyamoto wanted to point out that Ocarina of Time was not the Seal War, which definitely still stood when they switched to a split timeline.

I would make this post longer, but I don't really have that much more to say.

One more random question: Why am I the only person on the forums who's ever convinced of anything? ˉ\(°_o)/ˉ

[Zemen]

Good job, Zemen. You have me convinced, and that makes perfect sense. To add, I also think that Miyamoto wanted to point out that Ocarina of Time was not the Seal War, which definitely still stood when they switched to a split timeline.

I would make this post longer, but I don't really have that much more to say.

One more random question: Why am I the only person on the forums who's ever convinced of anything? ˉ\(°_o)/ˉ

Everyone gets convinced of stuff, you just seem to be the only one that openly says it (which isn't a bad thing). I really thought you were being sarcastic when you said I convinced you haha.

[Erimgard]

So if OoT was never meant to be the Seal War, why did the guy who wrote the game's plot say it was the Seal War?

[MrMosley]

So if OoT was never meant to be the Seal War, why did the guy who wrote the game's plot say it was the Seal War?

I think it was meant to be the Seal War, but it ended up causing too many problems than it solved. A major point about the SW was that there was no hero around. That is why the armies started battling, and why the Sages had to seal Ganon away, because he couldn't be defeated by other means.

[Erimgard]

The story doesn't specify whether there was a hero around or not.
Contradictions aside, in 1998, after OoT was released, the man who wrote the game's plot, a well as the man who developed the characters, stated that the game was the Seal War.

Wind Waker may have changed that, yes, but the plot differences between OoT and aLttPs backstory were irrelevant in 1998, because the game was the Seal War then, by admittance of its creators. The legend of the Seal War is said to be a legend shrowded in the mists of time.

Plot differences aren't really valid because of this. Wind Waker severing connections may be.

[Hayzer]

For some reason I always put the timeline in the order they were released unless a game was put otherwise. And since there's a split timeline, I put it thusly:

OoT, MM, LoZ, AoL, ALttP, LA, OoS/A, MC, FSA, TP, (ZXV)
OoT, MM, (ST), TWW, PH, (ST)

[Zemen]

For some reason I always put the timeline in the order they were released unless a game was put otherwise. And since there's a split timeline, I put it thusly:

OoT, MM, LoZ, AoL, ALttP, LA, OoS/A, MC, FSA, TP, (ZXV)
OoT, MM, (ST), TWW, PH, (ST)

This defeats the purpose of the thread. We're ONLY supposed to be talking about ALTTP's placement in relevance to LoZ/AoL.

Also, your timeline is wrong. I can't put it any more clearly than that. It actually takes A LOT of knowledge of the series and you do have to do some homework to make a timeline. It isn't nearly as simple as placing the games in order of their release. If you want to discuss your timeline, make a thread for it.

[Hayzer]

This defeats the purpose of the thread. We're ONLY supposed to be talking about ALTTP's placement in relevance to LoZ/AoL.


Fair enough. Since Wind Waker is from the split timeline, I'd still have to put ALttP after the original two. So, OoT>MM>(TP)>LoZ>AoL>ALttP

[Zemen]

Fair enough. Since Wind Waker is from the split timeline, I'd still have to put ALttP after the original two. So, OoT>MM>(TP)>LoZ>AoL>ALttP

Once again, we are ONLY talking about 4 games at the moment. LoZ, AoL, ALTTP and OoT. Stop adding games that are not being discussed.

Your correct post should say LoZ-AoL-ALTTP with OoT in front. That's all we're discussing right now. Leave the other crap out til we get there.

You should also come up with a better reason for your placement than "this is the order the games were made."

That argument doesn't work for any of the games. Some of the games work out that way (direct sequels), but other than direct sequels, it is impossible to place games based on their release date.

[Skull_Kid]

Fair enough. Since Wind Waker is from the split timeline, I'd still have to put ALttP after the original two. So, OoT>MM>(TP)>LoZ>AoL>ALttP

LoZ and AoL don't make sense being before ALttP for several reasons.

Let me say some of those.

1 - Ganon dies at the end of LoZ and stays dead at the end of AoL, while the BS of ALttP clearly states that he(Ganondorf, not ganon) and his gang of thieves invaded the SR and touched the triforce, the rest you all know.

2 - The fact that it was Ganondorf and not Ganon who entered the Sacred Realm, makes me think and wonder if he already had touched the Triforce in FSA, since it clearly says through the game that it was Ganondorf, and not Ganon who went to the Pyramid and stole the Trident of Power.

[Hayzer]

LoZ and AoL don't make sense being before ALttP for several reasons.

Let me say some of those.

1 - Ganon dies at the end of LoZ and stays dead at the end of AoL, while the BS of ALttP clearly states that he(Ganondorf, not ganon) and his gang of thieves invaded the SR and touched the triforce, the rest you all know.

2 - The fact that it was Ganondorf and not Ganon who entered the Sacred Realm, makes me think and wonder if he already had touched the Triforce in FSA, since it clearly says through the game that it was Ganondorf, and not Ganon who went to the Pyramid and stole the Trident of Power.

Yeah, and that backstory is prequeling the first game, LoZ, not ALttP. It makes much more sense for ALttP to come after AoL.

[sign of table]

1 - Ganon dies at the end of LoZ and stays dead at the end of AoL, while the BS of ALttP clearly states that he(Ganondorf, not ganon) and his gang of thieves invaded the SR and touched the triforce, the rest you all know. Ganon dies at the end of LttP, and quite possibly even more thoroughly (if you can be more thoroughly dead...); because there were no ashes or anything left of Ganon after LttP (although that could just be for gameplay).

Here's a question, when in LttP does the king of Hyrule rule with the Triforce?

While I agree in 1991 it went LttP-LoZ/AoL, in 1998 Miyamoto said it went OoT-LoZ/AoL-LttP, so that's the way it would be in 1998.

[Hayzer]

Ganon dies at the end of LttP, and quite possibly even more thoroughly (if you can be more thoroughly dead...); because there were no ashes or anything left of Ganon after LttP (although that could just be for gameplay).

Here's a question, when in LttP does the king of Hyrule rule with the Triforce?

While I agree in 1991 it went LttP-LoZ/AoL, in 1998 Miyamoto said it went OoT-LoZ/AoL-LttP, so that's the way it would be in 1998.


Exactly.

As for when the King rules with the Triforce, I would say OoX, but we're still talking about 1998, aren't we?

Man, I wish I could delete those first two posts. They will haunt me for years to come...