Stuff Concerning the Placement of OoX and LA

[Skull_Kid]

Well, the title of this thread is pretty self explanatory.

Last night, after beating both LA and OoX games, I started to think about something:

Okay, so, it is common knowledge to all theorists(or it should be :dry:) that LA was, in the first place, intended to be a direct sequel to ALttP.
This is fundamented by lots of in game hints, Koholint Geography, some enemies, etc, including the final boss.
Everything is supposed to be a "dream version" of ALttP.
Yet, there is one character that never appeared in ALttP and appears in OoX that makes an appearance early in LA.
The Moblin King.
Yes, the same one that in OoA steals the bomb flowers, wich also appears in OoS.
His first appearance is in LA, so, how could Link dream of someone he never met?
Okay, it's a dream, and there are lots of characters that are different from everyother ones, but, this one specifically, appears in OoX.
Is this a hint, maybe?

[MrMosley]

That is pretty interesting. But I'm gonna have to disagree. There's a lot of stuff that people have came up with to try and place OoX before LA, and some of it is good, some is pretty lame. This example is pretty good, and would work, considering Link dreams of the enemies he encountered in the "past" in LA.

However, the strongest point that I always argue when the placement of these games is brought up is the fact that OoX (both) were built with all of the graphics from LA at the developer's disposal. That means that they could use any enemy, any boss, pretty much any sprite that they needed. It is clear that they made use of their large supply of already made graphics for their games, as well as made a lot of new enemies and bosses as well. Like in OoS, you will see a lot of bosses that are reminiscent of the original LoZ. There are even some levels, such as the Gnarled Root Dungeon, that are almost identical to the first dungeon in LoZ. I heard somewhere that originally, the plans were to remake LoZ for the GBC, so this would be a perfect reason for all of these classic bosses and similar locations in OoS. But again, the majority of their sprites come from LA because they were made with the same graphics, same engine basically, and it would have been useless for the team to go back and remake sprites of creatures that were already made.

[Skull_Kid]

Yes, they were planning on a LoZ remake for the GBC, like they did with a bunch of NES games.
Anyways, yes, the engine was LA's engine slightly altered, so, that's probably why.
As a fact in the rest of the whole game, the only thing that reminds me of OoX is an animal in the animal village that looks like a small Moosh, but it is probably just a coincidence, and, not a strong evidence.
The strongest evidence would probably be the Moblin King, but, as you said and I agree, it can be kinda disproved with the engine argument.

[Erimgard]

There are also Goombas in LA. As I've told people many times, you can't base a timeline placement in a game that is a dream on enemies. If that was the case, the timeline would be:

A Link to the Past-> Super Mario Brothers -> OoS/OoA->Link's Awakening.

[Skull_Kid]

-.- I hope that you noticed that your post is absolutely ridiculous and useless.

[MrMosley]

There are also Goombas in LA. As I've told people many times, you can't base a timeline placement in a game that is a dream on enemies. If that was the case, the timeline would be:

A Link to the Past-> Super Mario Brothers -> OoS/OoA->Link's Awakening.

You can to a certain extent. LA has other stuff, like telephones, that don't make sense in the world of Zelda (at least for that point of time), Goombas and Paranah Plants. These types of things can show up just because it is a dream, and Nintendo can literally put anything they want in there and make it okay. But a lot of the enemies can largely be based on Link's experiences from ALttP. Most of the enemies are rehashed from that game, as well as bosses, because the dream is not only the Windfish's, but it is Link's as well. These are his "nightmares".

Another thing to point out is that the Moblin King actually is like Ganon himself. Ganon originally was designed to look just like a big ole moblin. He was essentially, the King of the Moblins. So it could be that Link sees the Moblin King in LA because he is relating it somewhat to Ganon, then later on an actual Moblin King exists in another country. Its not that far fetched. In Zelda, there is usually a hierarchy over the smaller groups of creatures.

[Skull_Kid]

I never thought of that, but it really makes sense.
I think that, over the time Nintendo kinda killed the idea of Ganon being the king of the moblins.
Just keep in mind, everyone, that I actually don't believe that OoX are before LA, yet, I gave the idea a thought.

[ChargewithSword]

I really count the day the game was released as evidence that OOX is LA's prequel. Considering how OOX is a sequel to a game means that it has to follow at least ALttp's story. It just doesn't make sense as a sequel to anything but Alttp or LOZ.

[Erimgard]

You can to a certain extent. LA has other stuff, like telephones, that don't make sense in the world of Zelda (at least for that point of time), Goombas and Paranah Plants. These types of things can show up just because it is a dream, and Nintendo can literally put anything they want in there and make it okay.

Why shouldn't telephones "make sense", and in fact, what is "sense" in terms of Hylian technological advancement?

Wind Waker and Majora's Mask have cameras.
Twilight Princess has electromagnets.
Both TP and MC have floating cities.

There is no sensible level of technological advancement.

[ChargewithSword]

Why shouldn't telephones "make sense", and in fact, what is "sense" in terms of Hylian technological advancement?

Wind Waker and Majora's Mask have cameras.
Twilight Princess has electromagnets.
Both TP and MC have floating cities.

There is no sensible level of technological advancement.

1. The cameras are very old fashion from appearances and they seem to all take pictures in only black and white unless powered by a magic firefly.

2. That is most likely from the mines themselves, who says that minerals cannot be electromagnetical.

3. Most likely made by magic.

[Erimgard]

1. The cameras are very old fashion from appearances and they seem to all take pictures in only black and white unless powered by a magic firefly.

Black and white camers are still VERY recent technology on the vast scales.



2. That is most likely from the mines themselves, who says that minerals cannot be electromagnetical.
They are connected to pipes that go into the earth. Implied geothermal energy.



3. Most likely made by magic.
Except for the propellors.

[sign of table]

Yet, there is one character that never appeared in ALttP and appears in OoX that makes an appearance early in LA.
The Moblin King. There's more than one. There's atleast 14 enemies that ONLY appear in OoX/LA. Blaino is an interesting one.
Considering how OOX is a sequel to a game means that it has to follow at least ALttp's story. lolwut?

Anyways, basically every evidence that LttP/LA has, OoX/LA has more of the same literal evidence. But, seriously, literal evidence doesn't mean a whole lot. The biggest thing to me is that the game that matches the LA backstory just as well as LttP, contains more references and similarities than LttP, also contains an ending which continues perfectly into LAs opening.

That to me shows what Capcom's intent with OoX was. Whether that's Nintendo's intent or not, OoX contains so many similarities and works so perfectly into LA (apart from the original intent such as AST which came out before OoX) it can't be a coincidence.
The strongest evidence would probably be the Moblin King, but, as you said and I agree, it can be kinda disproved with the engine argument. The 2 Moblin Kings look different. Blaino is the exact same, like the other 13 exclusive enemies.
As a fact in the rest of the whole game, the only thing that reminds me of OoX is an animal in the animal village that looks like a small Moosh, but it is probably just a coincidence, and, not a strong evidence. OoX/LA DOES contain more similarities than LttP/LA. Whether they mean anything or not is up to what you believe matters, but there's no denying that OoX/LA contains more similarities than LttP/LA.

[MrMosley]

Why shouldn't telephones "make sense", and in fact, what is "sense" in terms of Hylian technological advancement?

Telephones require electricity. Electricity had never been used in a Zelda game at that point. All things that would normally use electricity use magic. LA, being a dream, is not based on what technology is present in the series. That is why telephones do not make sense. At that point in time, when LA was the fourth only Zelda game out, the number of advancements in technology was practically none.


There is no sensible level of technological advancement.

I suppose you could say that. But then again, when we look at the AT, it obviously gets more advanced with each game (WW to ST is pretty clear). The CT isn't so clear, at least what most people consider the CT. Twilight Princess had some advancements in technology, but they weren't major. The majority of the game stuck to the medieval setting with Zelda-like techs. You can't really argue the tech advancement when TP sets way back on the timeline, yet LoZ/AoL take place afterwards. Obviously, with each new game that comes out chronologically, Nintendo is going to imply newer things which include technological advancements. But I would be pretty sure that if a telephone was able to be created at the time of LA in the real Zelda world, then we would have seen Link with a cell phone in OoX.

[Zemen]

There's more than one. There's atleast 14 enemies that ONLY appear in OoX/LA. Blaino is an interesting one.

Like it was recently stated, they were made with the same graphics engine so why remake sprites when they already have past sprites to use. This really didn't help disprove the theory of the characters just being rehashed.


Telephones require electricity. Electricity had never been used in a Zelda game at that point. All things that would normally use electricity use magic. LA, being a dream, is not based on what technology is present in the series. That is why telephones do not make sense. At that point in time, when LA was the fourth only Zelda game out, the number of advancements in technology was practically none.



I suppose you could say that. But then again, when we look at the AT, it obviously gets more advanced with each game (WW to ST is pretty clear). The AT isn't so clear, at least what most people consider the AT. Twilight Princess had some advancements in technology, but they weren't major. The majority of the game stuck to the medieval setting with Zelda-like techs. You can't really argue the tech advancement when TP sets way back on the timeline, yet LoZ/AoL take place afterwards. Obviously, with each new game that comes out chronologically, Nintendo is going to imply newer things which include technological advancements. But I would be pretty sure that if a telephone was able to be created at the time of LA in the real Zelda world, then we would have seen Link with a cell phone in OoX.

I just wanted to point out that you said AT in spots that I think you meant to say CT. :P




As for what I would like to contribute to this thread, when you first arrive on Koholint Island, the owl that talks to you when you get your sword tells you that the monsters have recently started becoming hostile (or something along those lines) and that he wants you to check it out. This implies that the monsters were there before Link was. This would mean that the monsters aren't from Link's memory but rather from the Wind Fish's memory.

[MrMosley]

I just wanted to point out that you said AT in spots that I think you meant to say CT. :P

Ahh yes, so I did o.o. I'll have to fix that.


As for what I would like to contribute to this thread, when you first arrive on Koholint Island, the owl that talks to you when you get your sword tells you that the monsters have recently started becoming hostile (or something along those lines) and that he wants you to check it out. This implies that the monsters were there before Link was. This would mean that the monsters aren't from Link's memory but rather from the Wind Fish's memory.

This is true, and something I have never considered. But one word sticks out there that I think still helps my idea, and that is the word "lately". This could possibly refer to the time during and after Link arrived, which would make sense. Upon Link entering the dream, his nightmares became one with the Windfish's, thus there were more of them, increasing hostility.

Also, I think it is obviously the Nightmare boss at the end who was doing most of the work. But as for the Moblins and Zoras and things like that, I believe they could have been smaller Nightmares of another form, but took the form of things that Link was most familiar with and most likely afraid of, just as the main Nightmare boss does this by transforming into forms of Moldorm, Agahnim, and Ganon.

[sign of table]

Like it was recently stated, they were made with the same graphics engine so why remake sprites when they already have past sprites to use. This really didn't help disprove the theory of the characters just being rehashed. I'm pretty sure I said that in my post, too ;)
OoX/LA has more of the same literal evidence. But, seriously, literal evidence doesn't mean a whole lot.
OoX/LA DOES contain more similarities than LttP/LA. Whether they mean anything or not is up to what you believe matters I was just listing facts.

[Master Kokiri 9]

Well, the title of this thread is pretty self explanatory.

Last night, after beating both LA and OoX games, I started to think about something:

Okay, so, it is common knowledge to all theorists(or it should be :dry:) that LA was, in the first place, intended to be a direct sequel to ALttP.
This is fundamented by lots of in game hints, Koholint Geography, some enemies, etc, including the final boss.
Everything is supposed to be a "dream version" of ALttP.
Yet, there is one character that never appeared in ALttP and appears in OoX that makes an appearance early in LA.
The Moblin King.
Yes, the same one that in OoA steals the bomb flowers, wich also appears in OoS.
His first appearance is in LA, so, how could Link dream of someone he never met?
Okay, it's a dream, and there are lots of characters that are different from everyother ones, but, this one specifically, appears in OoX.
Is this a hint, maybe?

Okay i know la means link's awakening but what does oox stand for? im confused.:S

[Skull_Kid]

Okay i know la means link's awakening but what does oox stand for? im confused.:S

OoX stands for "Oracles" as in: Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages.
Considering that they are direct sequel/prequel to each other in no apparent mandatory order, people refer to them this way

[Hayzer]

Everyone except Erim will yell at me for this (I think). I do believe that OoX comes before LA, but also before ALttP. But if you get technical, it would also be before FS/FSA. I know how people like Zemen are sick of my using of the Triforce, but it makes sense. In the end of AoL, the Triforce is a whole at the Castle. In the beginning of OoX, the Triforce is at the Castle. And since Ganon is dead from the events of LoZ, it would make perfect sense for OoX to go after AoL, seeing as how LoZ and AoL are direct sequels. The only problem I see with this theory is how Ganon comes back for FSA. My theories are a mess right now, so I don't really know what to think. This is why I'm hoping that the new Zelda Wii is a remake of LoZ so we can solidify it's placement in the timeline once and for all. But I do agree with Zemen, Erim, and DL01. LA is THE direct sequel to ALttP, no matter where OoX goes. There's more evidence for it than against it.

[Skull_Kid]

Everyone except Erim will yell at me for this (I think). I do believe that OoX comes before LA, but also before ALttP. But if you get technical, it would also be before FS/FSA. I know how people like Zemen are sick of my using of the Triforce, but it makes sense. In the end of AoL, the Triforce is a whole at the Castle. In the beginning of OoX, the Triforce is at the Castle. And since Ganon is dead from the events of LoZ, it would make perfect sense for OoX to go after AoL, seeing as how LoZ and AoL are direct sequels. The only problem I see with this theory is how Ganon comes back for FSA. My theories are a mess right now, so I don't really know what to think. This is why I'm hoping that the new Zelda Wii is a remake of LoZ so we can solidify it's placement in the timeline once and for all. But I do agree with Zemen, Erim, and DL01. LA is THE direct sequel to ALttP, no matter where OoX goes. There's more evidence for it than against it.

LoZ and AoL cannot be before ALttP, even if AoL is followed by OoX, and I'll summarize it for you:

In the BS of ALttP it says that the Triforce is a Golden Power left by the Creator Goddesses in the Sacred Realm(pretty much what is told by the Deku Tree in OoT).
Ganondorf finds a way into the Sacred Realm and touches the Triforce, wishing for Hyrule.
HOWEVER, most probably due to the fact that he is evil, the Triforce warped the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, turning it in a twisted version of Hyrule, instead of giving him Hyrule.
The Sages sealed the Portals to the Sacred Realm/Dark World, and Ganon stayed there until he found a way to use Aghanim to his purposes.

Anyways, for starters, if LoZ and AoL, and, subsequently, OoX came before ALttP, it would be automatically contradicting ALttP's BS, that clearly states that the Triforce was still hidden in the Golden Land, in it's COMPLETE form, when Ganondorf found it(this also contradicts OoT, but we may get there later).

Also, Putting LoZ/AoL and OoX before ALttp, would put FS/FSA also after OoX, WICH COULD make some sense to the quote said by Zelda that is:

"Ganon, an ancient Demon Reborn", even though, that quote already made sense(and maybe, a lot more) if The order was(wich I believe that it is) OoT/MM-TP-FS/FSA-etc...

Also, note that in LoZ Ganon does NOT use the Trident of Power, yet, it is his weapon in both OoX, FSA and ALttP, and in Dehtl's Ganon form on the Windfish Egg battle.

[Hayzer]

LoZ and AoL cannot be before ALttP, even if AoL is followed by OoX, and I'll summarize it for you:

In the BS of ALttP it says that the Triforce is a Golden Power left by the Creator Goddesses in the Sacred Realm(pretty much what is told by the Deku Tree in OoT).
Ganondorf finds a way into the Sacred Realm and touches the Triforce, wishing for Hyrule.
HOWEVER, most probably due to the fact that he is evil, the Triforce warped the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, turning it in a twisted version of Hyrule, instead of giving him Hyrule.
The Sages sealed the Portals to the Sacred Realm/Dark World, and Ganon stayed there until he found a way to use Aghanim to his purposes.

Have you ever considered that just maybe the BS took place BEFORE LoZ?


Anyways, for starters, if LoZ and AoL, and, subsequently, OoX came before ALttP, it would be automatically contradicting ALttP's BS, that clearly states that the Triforce was still hidden in the Golden Land, in it's COMPLETE form, when Ganondorf found it(this also contradicts OoT, but we may get there later).

Again, before LoZ.


Also, Putting LoZ/AoL and OoX before ALttp, would put FS/FSA also after OoX, WICH COULD make some sense to the quote said by Zelda that is:

"Ganon, an ancient Demon Reborn", even though, that quote already made sense(and maybe, a lot more) if The order was(wich I believe that it is) OoT/MM-TP-FS/FSA-etc...

Also, note that in LoZ Ganon does NOT use the Trident of Power, yet, it is his weapon in both OoX, FSA and ALttP, and in Dehtl's Ganon form on the Windfish Egg battle.

Which makes more sense if you think about it. Ganon didn't have the Trident in LoZ at all. But he got it later in OoX, FSA, and ALttP when he became more powerful. And btw, just because Ganon has the Trident in OoX before FSA doesn't mean a whole lot. Twinrova tried to resurrect (sp?) Ganon in OoX. They could have resurrected him with any weapon. Then he gets the actual Trident in FSA, which continues to ALttP.

[Steve]

Have you ever considered that just maybe the BS took place BEFORE LoZ?



Again, before LoZ.



Which makes more sense if you think about it. Ganon didn't have the Trident in LoZ at all. But he got it later in OoX, FSA, and ALttP when he became more powerful. And btw, just because Ganon has the Trident in OoX before FSA doesn't mean a whole lot. Twinrova tried to resurrect (sp?) Ganon in OoX. They could have resurrected him with any weapon. Then he gets the actual Trident in FSA, which continues to ALttP.
Ganon did, however, have the Trident of Power in BS The Legend of Zelda, which is considered to be more canon over the original. Also, Ganon having the Trident in the Oracle series before Four Swords Adventures means EVERYTHING. You mean to tell me he took it and put it back? That makes no sense at all, Four Swords Adventures has to take place before all of the games including Ganon with the Trident. He can't just simply pop up with some random weapon, that makes no sense either, not to mention, it also wouldn't explain why he's in his blue pig form which is only the result of the Trident.

[Skull_Kid]

Ganon did, however, have the Trident of Power in BS The Legend of Zelda, which is considered to be more canon over the original. Also, Ganon having the Trident in the Oracle series before Four Swords Adventures means EVERYTHING. You mean to tell me he took it and put it back? That makes no sense at all, Four Swords Adventures has to take place before all of the games including Ganon with the Trident. He can't just simply pop up with some random weapon, that makes no sense either, not to mention, it also wouldn't explain why he's in his blue pig form which is only the result of the Trident.

Yes, even more considering the fact that it's not just some random Trident, it's the Trident of Power.

BS Zeruda no Densetsu should be considered canon over LoZ, imo, because, it's an upgrade of the game, even though it's not widely available.

Also, don't forget that, according to the Zunas and Gerudo dialogues in FSA, we can pretty much agree that it's the same GANON, but it's a different GANONDORF, that'd explain Zelda's quote "An Ancient Demon reborn".
It is clearly stated in-game that it was GANONDORF and not GANON who obtained the Trident of Power

[Hayzer]

Recently, I've rearranged my timeline, and the best way that fits would for OoX to still go after AoL, but I have chucked the Miyamoto Order out finally.

FSA--SW--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL--OoX

Makes the most sense regarding this part of the timeline.

[Steve]

Recently, I've rearranged my timeline, and the best way that fits would for OoX to still go after AoL, but I have chucked the Miyamoto Order out finally.

FSA--SW--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL--OoX

Makes the most sense regarding this part of the timeline.

That seems more accurate, I've always had LoZ and AoL last, however. Question, though, what's SW?

[Hayzer]

That seems more accurate, I've always had LoZ and AoL last, however. Question, though, what's SW?

THe Seal War, also known as the IW or Imprisoning war. Ganondorf was sealed by seven sages in the SR and remained there until ALttP. This obviously cannot be OoT, because Ganondorf in the CT was executed by six sages. Plus unless you count the FS as the SR, you have to put the SW somewhere on your timeline.

But a big plothole develops from this. Ganondorf becomes Ganon in FSA. If the SW were before FSA, Ganondorf couldn't exist for the events of FSA because he would've been sealed. However, even if you place the SW after FSA, you have to speculate that Ganon became Ganondorf once again because it was Ganondorf the man that was sealed in the SW...

[Steve]

THe Seal War, also known as the IW or Imprisoning war. Ganondorf was sealed by seven sages in the SR and remained there until ALttP. This obviously cannot be OoT, because Ganondorf in the CT was executed by six sages. Plus unless you count the FS as the SR, you have to put the SW somewhere on your timeline.

I've considered the Seal War to be the backstory of Twilight Princess (where they tell you of the interlopers), as the remake of A Link to the Past changes the story from Ganon being sealed, to a dark tribe being sealed.

[Hayzer]

I've considered the Seal War to be the backstory of Twilight Princess (where they tell you of the interlopers), as the remake of A Link to the Past changes the story from Ganon being sealed, to a dark tribe being sealed.

I've gotta see this for myself. This would help my theories so much.

*flees to youtube*

[MrMosley]

I've considered the Seal War to be the backstory of Twilight Princess (where they tell you of the interlopers), as the remake of A Link to the Past changes the story from Ganon being sealed, to a dark tribe being sealed.

The remake of ALttP for GBA says the same thing as the SNES version, just shorter in a lot of places. The maidens still tell you that a seal was placed after Ganon entered the SR, and that the seal was to remain for all time.

I would post a bunch of quotes and various things but I already have. So I'll just give the link to that thread. The post has some green highlighted parts on it so its hard to miss. But I highly recommend reading it if anyone believes GBA ALttP changed anything at all. It still tells that Ganon entered and was sealed within the SR, and did not come back out.

http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5150&page=4

[ganonlord6000]

In regards to the original topic here, LA is a direct sequel to ALTTP. Many sources confrim this. The Oracles were meant as a stand alone plot anyways as the story was written by Capcom NOT Nintendo (they did supervise the Oracles though). The boat in the Oracles isn't even the same one from LA. ALTTP/LA is definatly confirmed (THe end boss seems to imply this)while OOX/LA is not confirmed. Keep that in mind.

[Zemen]

In regards to the original topic here, LA is a direct sequel to ALTTP. Many sources confrim this. The Oracles were meant as a stand alone plot anyways as the story was written by Capcom NOT Nintendo (they did supervise the Oracles though). The boat in the Oracles isn't even the same one from LA. ALTTP/LA is definatly confirmed (THe end boss seems to imply this)while OOX/LA is not confirmed. Keep that in mind.

While I agree that LA is a direct sequel to ALTTP, there is no FOR SURE evidence of this. No one has confirmed LA's or OoX's placement. Yes, there is a lot of evidence for it to go after ALTTP, but there is evidence for the OoX connections as well. Nothing is confirmed, if it was then we wouldn't be arguing it.