New Trident Theory

[Alter]

Alright, I've once again revised my theory. I've posted it on many other sites, and although it is controversial, "it works" is the general agreement.

You can view it on the wiki here: http://www.zeldawiki.org/Timeline_Theories#Alter.27s_Trident_Timeline_Theor y

And yes, I am back at ZD for the time being.

[Zemen]

You have TP on the adult timeline and WW on the child timeline. I don't know if that's a mistake or not, but it's already been confirmed the complete opposite.

[Alter]

You have TP on the adult timeline and WW on the child timeline. I don't know if that's a mistake or not, but it's already been confirmed the complete opposite.

Oops. Yeah, it's a mistake. Well, actually, My timeline is just flipped, and I forgot to move MM. Thanks for catching that. Fixed it.

[Caleb, Of Asui]

You get +9001 for putting Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland in there. I haven't played it, so I have no idea how it influences the timeline. I'm a bit iffy about putting the comics in there. I'd say Tingle is more canon.

Ganon obtaining the trident as a basis for continuity is an interesting way to think of it. In a way, that seems to sit right next to my own theory of Ganon and Ganondorf not being entirely the same being. Nintendo's leaving sort of a gap there for us to fill in.

There are a few groupings (as in, having the same or generation) that I don'g agree with. I don't think the Oracle games have the same Link and Zelda as A Link to the Past, and, even if they did, the Oracle games are generally put between A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. Also, I think Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures feature the same generation, though that doesn't make a huge difference.

It looks pretty good, though. Maybe I should put my timeline up on Zelda Wiki...

[Alter]

You get +9001 for putting Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland in there. I haven't played it, so I have no idea how it influences the timeline. I'm a bit iffy about putting the comics in there. I'd say Tingle is more canon.

Ganon obtaining the trident as a basis for continuity is an interesting way to think of it. In a way, that seems to sit right next to my own theory of Ganon and Ganondorf not being entirely the same being. Nintendo's leaving sort of a gap there for us to fill in.

There are a few groupings (as in, having the same or generation) that I don'g agree with. I don't think the Oracle games have the same Link and Zelda as A Link to the Past, and, even if they did, the Oracle games are generally put between A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. Also, I think Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures feature the same generation, though that doesn't make a huge difference.

It looks pretty good, though. Maybe I should put my timeline up on Zelda Wiki...

TRR doesn't really influence the timeline as much as it meshes with it.

Being quite involved with the wiki, I can state that we are now considering the comics as "ambiguously canon". They were mostly considered non-canon, until it was brought up by myself and a few others that there was really no reason to call them non-canon until there is evidence that says otherwise. But I digress...

The differences you mentioned aren't really set in stone. OoX could be the same link, but not necessarily. Also, FS can be moved anytime between TMC and FSA.

[Tingle]

Just wondering if this was a mistake too -

"When Link doesn't return from Termina, Hyrule is flooded, explaining why there are islands in TRR, TWW, and PH. The land then drains, likely in ST."

But in your timeline MM is on the child side and so wouldnt influence the Adult side or is there an explanation.

I also believe Tingles Rosy Rupeeland is canon as is any Nintendo or Nintendo supervised game. For me FPTRR, Tingles Balloon Fight DS and Link's Crossbow Training are all canon (spin-offs or not).

Could someone please tell me what the valiant comic stories were cause im interested in them now (canon or not)

[Skull_Kid]

Just wondering if this was a mistake too -

"When Link doesn't return from Termina, Hyrule is flooded, explaining why there are islands in TRR, TWW, and PH. The land then drains, likely in ST."


That quote is so wrong... I mean, Link going to Termina already happens in the Child Timeline, so, nothing that happens there influentiates the Adult timeline, imo.


I also believe Tingles Rosy Rupeeland is canon as is any Nintendo or Nintendo supervised game. For me FPTRR, Tingles Balloon Fight DS and Link's Crossbow Training are all canon (spin-offs or not).

You are wrong.
Let me catch it up.

Apart from FPTRR, wich has a story, and I also believe that it is canon, Here goes:

Tingle's Baloon Fight has absolutely NO story.
Balloon fight with Tingle serving as character, period.

Link's CrossBow Training: All stages are directly taken from TP.
It has no evidences that make it canon.

[Tingle]

Woah Skull Kid dont be so hasty I havent been on here long but I already know that in 99% of cases you cant just write "You are wrong" especially on debatable subjects such as canonical items.

Tingle's Balloon Fight DS does have a story (not much of one but it does) which goes along the line of the Balloon Fighting spirit of the Bosom Oak challenges Tingle which he then proceeds to do so. Also in the game you can clearly see Tingle Tower aswell as a heavily flooded area in the background placing this around The Wind Waker in the timeline so why not place it as it doesnt confuse any points and it simple to place.

Link's Crossbow Training likewise is simple to place so why not place it as Link clearly has his hero's clothes, bow etc. so takes place after Twilight Princess clearly.

Some people place the SSB games in their timelines, others put in the CD-Is and others put in the comics and to me I believe these games are as canon if not more so than all of these (no offence to anybody)

[Skull_Kid]

Woah Skull Kid dont be so hasty I havent been on here long but I already know that in 99% of cases you cant just write "You are wrong" especially on debatable subjects such as canonical items.

Tingle's Balloon Fight DS does have a story (not much of one but it does) which goes along the line of the Balloon Fighting spirit of the Bosom Oak challenges Tingle which he then proceeds to do so. Also in the game you can clearly see Tingle Tower aswell as a heavily flooded area in the background placing this around The Wind Waker in the timeline so why not place it as it doesnt confuse any points and it simple to place.

Link's Crossbow Training likewise is simple to place so why not place it as Link clearly has his hero's clothes, bow etc. so takes place after Twilight Princess clearly.

Some people place the SSB games in their timelines, others put in the CD-Is and others put in the comics and to me I believe these games are as canon if not more so than all of these (no offence to anybody)



You cans ay "You're wrong" to someone who really is.

The are lots of things in LCT that show that it is not canon, starting with it's box, that says that the stages are TAKEN from TP.

Bosom Oak is NOT a Zelda universe character, so, I pretty much killed your theory.

As for placing SSBs on the Timelines?It is a bit of absurd.
That would make Soul Calibur II also canon, and other games where Link appears.
And, in that "spirit", then FF1 would also be canon, cause there is a grave that says: Here rests Link.

The only canon games are:

LoZ
AoL
ALttp(GBA VERSION)
LA DX
OoT
MM
OoA
OoS
WW
FS
FSA
MC
PH
TP
ST
And possibly FPTRRL.

[Tingle]

Im afraid Im going to have to disagree with you there and say for my timeline your wrong as they are both Zelda games (spin-offs yes but so is FPTRR which you think is canon) Is that not picking and choosing what games you want to include in the series like some do with the capcom games. They take place in the Zelda Universe and so are canon to me as are all their characters (Bosom Oak)

The fact that LCT takes place in the Twilight Princess locations just mean that they are so close together in the timeline that the locations ahvent had time to change. Anyways Im ending this as we are getting off topic here as this is supposed to be about the trident.

[Zemen]

Woah Skull Kid dont be so hasty I havent been on here long but I already know that in 99% of cases you cant just write "You are wrong"

Skull Kid and myself have a knack for finding that rare 1% case where you can say "you are wrong."

I'm gonna have to agree with my buddy, Skull Kid, on this one.


Tingle's Balloon Fight DS does have a story (not much of one but it does) which goes along the line of the Balloon Fighting spirit of the Bosom Oak challenges Tingle which he then proceeds to do so. Also in the game you can clearly see Tingle Tower aswell as a heavily flooded area in the background placing this around The Wind Waker in the timeline so why not place it as it doesnt confuse any points and it simple to place.

Simplicity doesn't make it true. Maybe it's made to be so simple BECAUSE it's not so supposed to be connected. Why complicate something unrelated?


Link's Crossbow Training likewise is simple to place so why not place it as Link clearly has his hero's clothes, bow etc. so takes place after Twilight Princess clearly.

Like Skull Kid said, the box clearly states that the levels are taken FROM TP. It doesn't say that this is something that happens during TP. This is just a gimmick to get people to buy the wii blaster.


Some people place the SSB games in their timelines, others put in the CD-Is and others put in the comics and to me I believe these games are as canon if not more so than all of these (no offence to anybody)

If you placed the SSB games in the timeline then that would mean every single nintendo character in all of those games live in the same universe.

Are you seriously suggesting that the futuristic world of Captain Falcon is somewhere near the medieval world of Link? Wrong.

[basement24]

SSB can't be a part of any timelines (Zelda or Mario or Metroid or whatever) since it outright states that it is the Master Hand playing with little statues or toys of the Nintendo characters. The whole thing takes place on a desk, just it appears to be taking place in Hyrule (for one example) because it's the Master Hand's imagination making it this way.

[Erimgard]

I'll read your timeline soon, but for now I just want to say a quick word about FPTRR:

While I used to hold it as canon, and include it in my timeline, I've changed my mind about it. One of the game's developers stated that the references to mainstream Zelda games were just to "make Zelda fans smile".

This developer states that she herself doesn't have much experience with playing the Zelda series, and that when developing the game, they made references to the mainstream games in such a way that it wouldn't confuse newcomers, but (as previously stated) would make the hardcore fans smile.

From that I gather that the references are not meant to be storyline relevant.

[Tingle]

"Are you seriously suggesting that the futuristic world of Captain Falcon is somewhere near the medieval world of Link? Wrong."

At no point in my post did I say I personally believe that SSB games or Soul calibur etc. take place in the timeline I said others do but not me.

I can't see what the big fuss is about the games I consider canon as its my opinion and it doesnt hurt or complicate the timeline I just like to place all the Zelda games in the timeline and this includes to me LCT and TBF. Theres been more talk about my ideas of canon games than the actual topic.

Nintendo have not said these games are canon and they have not said they are not so at the moment I choose to place them in my timeline until the point they do so (maybe not even then just a larger more impressive timeline theory)

"Like Skull Kid said, the box clearly states that the levels are taken FROM TP. It doesn't say that this is something that happens during TP. This is just a gimmick to get people to buy the wii blaster."

I didnt say it takes place during TP I said it could take place after due to the items he has and the way the location has not changed. But yes that is what the game was made for to promote the blaster but it does not take away that my theory could easily be justified

[Skull_Kid]

I was making a comparison to canonizing LCT and TBF was pretty much the same as canonizing Soul Calibur II and the whole SSB series.
You are wrong but you are being too stubborn to admit it.
There is NO SINGLE proof of evidence both in LCT and TBF to make anyone(apart from you, but I am not counting you) consider it canon.
And what items does Link have in LCT that make you think that this game is after TP?
Enlighten me, please.

On a sidenote: from your point of view, maybe even the cd-i should be canon, no?

[basement24]

LCT is just a case of cashing in on the Zelda franchise name in order to sell a Wii peripheral. Miyamoto himself said he tried to get his team to come up with a side story to TP, but it wasn't coming about so he "ultimately suggested that we make a game based on the Twilight Princess that utilized the Wii Zapper." He even stated that in test audiences, no one commented on how it wasn't Zelda. Whether or not he meant it didn't play like a traditional Zelda game, orif he meant it wasn't intended to be a Zelda game is up for debate I suppose.

You can read the whole Miyamoto / Iwata interview here:
http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/crossbow/vol1_page1.jsp

One could argue that perhaps LCT takes place after TP because Link doesn't have his sword. It could have been what he set out to do when he left Ordon in the TP end credits. Of crouse, the canonisity of it seems off due to the pop-up targets placed in odd places such as the City in the Sky and the Arbiter's Grounds. I suppose Link could have done so, and then shot them all down, but really, it's questionable. Plus the reformation of Stallord is questionable considering his demise. Given all this, but more specifically what Miyamoto stated in the interview, I would say LCT is supposed to be nothing more than a fun game utilizing the Zelda world.

[Tingle]

This is truly amazing. You are calling me stubborn when youre not even reading my posts anymore. Ive said a few times now, I DON'T THINK SSB/CD-I/SC ARE CANON BUT IVE MET PEOPLE WHO DO.

These items include his hero's clothes and his bow as I have said previously and we know it doesnt take place during because there is no break in gameplay subsantial enough.

I have infact met a fair number of people who think these game are canon and why not they fit in the storyline perfectly (intended or not) and are Zelda games (THEY MAY NOT BE NINTENDO CANON BUT THEY COULD BE IF THEY DECIDE TO)

"Bosom Oak is NOT a Zelda universe character, so, I pretty much killed your theory."
Who said that? Show me evidence as to who said that and when (apart from yourself) cause I think youre disregarding your own point about using EVIDENCE as he is in the zelda world in a zelda game so why is he not a zelda character?

Now can somebody please discuss the Trident Theory which I think despite some accidental mistakes in his reasons is pretty solid.

[Skull_Kid]

I was just being sarcastic when I mentioned SSB and the CD-i games.
In case you didn't know, sarcasm's a *****, on the internet.
Did you read basement24's post?
Shigeru said that LCT is just composed of scenes TAKEN from TP, not AFTER TP.
And about TBF, the game doesn't have a story, nor anything to make it canon!
This is turning into a really stupid arguing cause you just can't seem to admit the facts and say the same thing over and over again, post after post

[Tingle]

Maybe Im repeating my points because youre not reading my points and thowing the same things back at me (for example, you said Bosom Oak is not a canon character and so TBF is not canon, I said give me evidence and you responded with TBF is not canon so youve not answered my point.

I read his post and the game is made using the stages from TP but that doesnt mean they cant turn round and say it takes place after as he also says they were trying to give it a story.

What was the point of being sarcastic at any point as I clearly said I dont believe they are involved so that was completely pointless.

I agree with Basement about the targets and Stallord but overall gameplay has to come ahead of the story and its not really a shooting game if there are no targets. Ive thought about Stallord and all I can think of is that theyre may be more than one or the twilight and evil energy of Zant and Ganon was still strong enough to resurrect Stallord in Hyrule Field or a combination of both.

It's probably just me but I like to put every Zelda game in the timeline no matter what it is unless its obviously not involved in any way (CD-I's)

So to try and start something on the Trident Theory, Alter why do you believe the comic series is canon and what do you believe happens to Ganon before and after FSA.

[basement24]

It's interesting that the Valiant Comics are included, but no other non-gaming material.

I assume the inclusion of the Valiant comics might have something to do with the fact that they have the "Official Nintendo Licenced Product" seal on the covers. By definition of the times they were created in, they were an extension of LoZ / AoL.

They were also somewhat an extension to the animated series though. In the end credits of that series, it was licenced by Nintendo, although the Seal wasn't given, but copyright notices marked it a Nintendo product. I would say that if you are going to include the Valiant series, then the animated series should be included as well. Although I know most people don't want to include it mainly on the basis that it was not well done, and the stories were a bit hokey.

That, or people just don't usually include anything that's not a Nintendo produced game. (Which is more the norm I would say.)

[Skull_Kid]

.
Ive thought about Stallord and all I can think of is that theyre may be more than one or the twilight and evil energy of Zant and Ganon was still strong enough to resurrect Stallord in Hyrule Field or a combination of both.


Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
You are running out of ideas and start making absurdous claims without a single little proof.
Zant was dead, and so was Ganondorf and Stallord.
Period.

EDIT: In what concerns the Valiant comics: they are more like a continuation of the TV series, not the games

[Tingle]

Im losing my pateince with you Skull Kid, youre coming across as very aggressive, how would you like it if I came onto your timeline said it was all wrong and that all your explanation were stupid without actually giving reasons. Move on man Im trying to get people to talk about Alter's theory and you keep bringing this back up.

We are talking about a fantasy world in which magic is prominent and youre discounting that evil magic (which wouldnt just go away in an instant) could resurrect stallord AGAIN (thats why you fight him the first time, MAGIC) Stallord is an undead creature (you might not have noticed but hes got no flesh or organs) in Twilight Princess so why cant he come back in LCT (canon or not) and as ive said before that the evil influence wouldnt just dissapear cause they are dead there are things called consequences and aftermaths to events.
If youre that bothered about this start a new thread called Tingle's an idiot and this is why his ideas are ridiculous and spout your pointless argument there.

[Zemen]

Im losing my pateince with you Skull Kid, youre coming across as very aggressive, how would you like it if I came onto your timeline said it was all wrong and that all your explanation were stupid without actually giving reasons. Move on man Im trying to get people to talk about Alter's theory and you keep bringing this back up.

As I recall, this argument that you two are having was brought up as a result of the trident theory so this makes it a relevant conversation. Also, Skull Kid has given you reasons for why the games aren't canon, you're the one making up reasons as to why they could be.

You guys were discussing a certain character not being an actual Zelda character in TBF so the game isn't canon. You suggested that without anyone stating that he isn't a Zelda character doesn't mean he isn't one. That's a terrible argument. The Zelda series never says anything about the Mushroom Kingdom or Mario but there are plenty of easter eggs. Does this mean that Mario lives in the Zelda universe? No. Similarly, because the games don't mention Mario verbally isn't evidence that he could live in the Zelda universe. Lack of evidence is not evidence, in this case.


We are talking about a fantasy world in which magic is prominent and youre discounting that evil magic (which wouldnt just go away in an instant) could resurrect stallord AGAIN (thats why you fight him the first time, MAGIC) Stallord is an undead creature (you might not have noticed but hes got no flesh or organs) in Twilight Princess so why cant he come back in LCT (canon or not) and as ive said before that the evil influence wouldnt just dissapear cause they are dead there are things called consequences and aftermaths to events.
If youre that bothered about this start a new thread called Tingle's an idiot and this is why his ideas are ridiculous and spout your pointless argument there.

Ganondorf was dead and so was Zant at the end of TP. Without any story to explain how Stallard would have been ressurected, it's safe to assume that we're not meant to believe he was and that this is just a gameplay choice. If it was meant to be canon then a reason would have been given to him being alive (along with any story whatsoever). It was just an evil they chose to use, nothing more.

[Tingle]

I give up on this argument as youre just trying to drown it out, In my opinion every Zelda game is canon and so I will always believe that those games are canon no matter what anybody on this board says and if your motive was to change my mind then just give up now. It works and unless it is in a game proven to be otherwise Ill always believe it.

[the walrus cat]

As I recall, this argument that you two are having was brought up as a result of the trident theory so this makes it a relevant conversation. That is true, that this conversation did start because of Alter's time line, but are you sure it's %100 relevant? This threads is becoming, mainly, what games are canon and what games aren't, which doesn't really change this Trident theory.

Tingle you've said that you wanted to just stop arguing, so maybe you should stop posting back to skull kid and end this pointless arguement.;)
-
Putting FSA in between the parts where we see ganon as a human and as a pig guy is a good idea for FSA's placement. Well, that's what I think.

[Tingle]

to be fair walrus cat my last post was me trying to end the argument but yes I believe FSA is alot more important than some people give it credit for as I believe it splits (not literally) between Ganon/dorf and Demon King Ganon with every game with Ganon with the trident in it coming after FSA which would mean ALTTP, OOX, LOZ/AOL, LA (Nightmare has trident) all come on the same side of the timeline as FSA

I just thought would this mean that these games take place in the Child Timeline because of Twinrova being in OOX (figuring as a key plot point which cant be ignored)

[the walrus cat]

to be fair walrus cat my last post was me trying to end the argument but yes I believe FSA is alot more important than some people give it credit for as I believe it splits (not literally) between Ganon/dorf and Demon King Ganon with every game with Ganon with the trident in it coming after FSA which would mean ALTTP, OOX, LOZ/AOL, LA (Nightmare has trident) all come on the same side of the timeline as FSA

I just thought would this mean that these games take place in the Child Timeline because of Twinrova being in OOX (figuring as a key plot point which cant be ignored)Yes, it most likely would mean that. Koume and Kotake WERE gone for a long time in what we've seen, it is possible the ones in Termina ARE the twinrova, and then they popped back up around (most likely a bit after) alttp (notice the mastersword is in the lost woods as we have seen in tp, which is certainly on the child-line).

Hope that might help placement alter.;)

[Alter]

Wow... I'm gone for one week, and now we're talking about what is/isn't canon? I'm ashamed that you guys let it get so far out of hand.

Now let's redeem this topic, and bring it back on course.

[Skull_Kid]

to be fair walrus cat my last post was me trying to end the argument but yes I believe FSA is alot more important than some people give it credit for as I believe it splits (not literally) between Ganon/dorf and Demon King Ganon with every game with Ganon with the trident in it coming after FSA which would mean ALTTP, OOX, LOZ/AOL, LA (Nightmare has trident) all come on the same side of the timeline as FSA

I just thought would this mean that these games take place in the Child Timeline because of Twinrova being in OOX (figuring as a key plot point which cant be ignored)

I also thought about that, the fact that FSA is much more important than it seems.
Also, in my opinion, OoX fit much better after LA than after ALttP.
And, LA is STILL a sequel to ALttP, since Nintendo said it was back in the day, and since that, they never said it wasn't a sequel anymore.
FSA clearly explains how Ganon got the Trident of Power, and that it gave him even more dark powers.
Pretty much every game after Ganondorf completely turns into Ganon(i.e. without allowing him to revert back to Ganondorf, presumably because his physical form's dead(as seen at the end of TP and WW) has him wielding the Trident.
The fact that Dehtl's Ganon form also has a Trident, just helps to strenghten my fact, because, Ganon in ALttP also wields it, and, to support back, Dehtl also assumes the form of Aghanim(Ganon's pawn in ALttP) and Moldorm(along with the boss of the first dungeon also being a Moldorm) wich was also a boss of ALttP.
There are NO other references to any of the Oracle's games, and neither LoZ or AoL.

[Alter]

Let me state that the reason I placed the comics in there is because I have pretty good reasons to believe that they're canon.

First off, LoZ/AoL Link was not from Hyrule. This is stated in the instruction manuals. There are many other factors, but in the end, everything adds up. Also, it's not really related to the TV series. It has very little similarities if you read it.

I should also add that the wiki has pretty much removed the non-canon labels from the comics, as there is no reason to state that they aren't canon, as Nintendo has never commented on them.