Twilight Princess in the Timeline

[HeroofAges]

Ok, so if you don't subscribe to the "Split Timeline Theory" then this does not apply to you. If you do then keep reading. I have seen a lot of versions of the timeline and one thing bothers me. In most versions, Twilight Princess takes place in the "child timeline". The commom reason seems to be that durring the cinematic at the Arbiter's Grounds Ganondorf is sentanced to death because he tries to conquer Hyrule. Thus this must be because Link, a child at the end of OoT, tells the king of the evil King's plans leading to his arrest. But I think there are some compelling reasons to conclude that this game could take place in the "adult timeline".

1- Durring the cinematic I mentioned above, Ganondorf survives his execution because of the power of the Triforce of Power. In the "child timeline" Ganondorf never got the Triforce so how could he use it to save himself. And to those who say that once he got it in the future he got it through all time periods, this is rediculous. If this was true then Link and Zelda would have also had their pieces in the past and OoT would have been a much different game.

2- Several very distinct references are made throughout TP which point to its placement in the "adult timeline".
First, at the beginning you get the Hero's Clothes which it strongly implies were once worn by the Link in OoT. But if this was the "child timeline", there was Hero of Time. If Ganondorf was executed before he could conquer Hyrule, then the events of OoT never happened and Link was just Link if you catch my meaning. The only one who would have known that Link was anything but a 'forest boy' was Zelda. Furthermore, Link in OoT didn't recieve his Hero's Clothes until he was an adult. So they would never have existed in the "child timeline".
Second, when you recieve the Zora's Tunic in TP Rutela says her husband, King Zora, made them for a great hero. this didn't happen until Link in OoT was an adult. So if this happened in the "child timeline", these could not possibly have been made for the Hero of Time.
And Third, we see the Biggoron Sword on display in Hyrule castle in TP. This sword was not completed and used by the Hero of Time until he was an adult. Again, this item would not exist in the "child timeline".
Oh and Fourth, the fishing hole in TP has a picture of the master fisherman from OoT holding the Hylian Loach caught by Link, which didn't happen until he was an adult.

Finaly, I think that certain geographical shifts can be best place in the "adult timeline". Most notably, after the "adult ending" of OoT the castle was left in ruins and would have had to been moved. This explains why the Temple of Time is no where near Castle Town in TP.

That is all for now. I want to eventually put up a timeline of my own but not until I finish examining the little nuances of the other games so that little hints and references don't get past me. :triforce:

[angelkid]

2- Several very distinct references are made throughout TP which point to its placement in the "adult time line".
First, at the beginning you get the Hero's Clothes which it strongly implies were once worn by the Link in OoT. But if this was the "child time line", there was Hero of Time. If Ganondorf was executed before he could conquer Hyrule, then the events of OoT never happened and Link was just Link if you catch my meaning. The only one who would have known that Link was anything but a 'forest boy' was Zelda. Furthermore, Link in OoT didn't receive his Hero's Clothes until he was an adult. So they would never have existed in the "child time line".

That's a good point. If the clothes worn were infarct the clothes worn by child Link, they would be referred to as 'forest tunic' or 'kikori tunic'


Second, when you receive the Zora's Tunic in TP Rutela says her husband, King Zora, made them for a great hero. this didn't happen until Link in OoT was an adult. So if this happened in the "child time line", these could not possibly have been made for the Hero of Time.

Another really good point. However, the only similarity between the Zora tunic between these games is that they are both blue. I know this is just design, but I believe that If the producers were trying to implement a hint, they would at least have made the tunics look more similar. Also, In OoT i do not believe the tunic is made for Link as they are actually sold in the shop.


And Third, we see the Biggoron Sword on display in Hyrule castle in TP. This sword was not completed and used by the Hero of Time until he was an adult. Again, this item would not exist in the "child time line".

Really? where?


Oh and Fourth, the fishing hole in TP has a picture of the master fisherman from OoT holding the Hylian Loach caught by Link, which didn't happen until he was an adult.

Good point, however, this could have easily been caught by someone else. Nothing actually states that this fish was caught by Link. Also, if I remember correctly, there were quite a few pictures of people who had caught hylian loaches so this could easily have been anyone who caught this particular loach.



Finaly, I think that certain geographical shifts can be best place in the "adult time line". Most notably, after the "adult ending" of OoT the castle was left in ruins and would have had to been moved. This explains why the Temple of Time is no where near Castle Town in TP. :triforce:

This is again a very good point. I always wondered why the two temples of time were so far away. It has to be said you are a very good observationist.

[HeroofAges]

As to the dissimilarities in the appearance of the Zora Tunic, I believe this is a simple example of the designers showing off. That is why Ganondorf looks so different from his OoT incarnation and small changes keep getting made to equipment and even Link's clothes. The Biggoron Sword I can't recall the exact location.. I'll go back and try to find it again. And the fisherman .. well that could be true however most game designers love sneaking little easter eggs into games. I don't think they would put that picture there unless it was THE Loach caught by OoT Link.

Here is a youtube vid showing the sword http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYQFSI_yVu4

[Oathkeeper95]

egh that sword could have easily been the goron sword that looks exactly the same as the biggoran sword or biggoron could have simply made it for the royal family.

[Oathkeeper95]

besides, the OTHER reason that tp is believed to be in the child timeline is because ganondorf was sealed in the end of the adult timeline and according to WW ganondorf eventualy weaked out and since no hero of time appeared the goddesses flooded hyrule

[HeroofAges]

besides, the OTHER reason that tp is believed to be in the child timeline is because ganondorf was sealed in the end of the adult timeline and according to WW ganondorf eventualy weaked out and since no hero of time appeared the goddesses flooded hyrule


But couldn't that just mean that WW took place in the child timeline? Link left to Termina in MM. It never said he came back. So if Ganon attacked the Hero of Time would not appear. Or it could happen before or after TP. Or, keep in mind that few of the BS for the Zelda games mesh perfectly. What we get in manuals and cinematics is only the story as it is remembered by the current inhabitants of Hyrule. Over time stories get muddled and exagerated. I am not saying that I couldn't be wrong, only that one who objectively has to admit that I COULD be right.

And all the other things I point out point to the adult timeline. Why would there be so many refernces to the adult ending of OoT but almost nothing that points to the child ending except a single interpretation of a cinematic.

And like I said about the photo, easter eggs like thes are usualy in a game for a reason. In this case, it would be a piece of Hyrule hostory on display. Even if it was the Goron sword/knife it wasn't implemented until the future storyline where it started out in the hands of that carpenter guy... no Future Link, no hero, no reason to display the sword.

Remember that game designers frequently make small changes / retcons with games in a series as their story unfolds. And there could be one or several games worth of missing story between existing instalments.

[Zemen]

1- Durring the cinematic I mentioned above, Ganondorf survives his execution because of the power of the Triforce of Power. In the "child timeline" Ganondorf never got the Triforce so how could he use it to save himself. And to those who say that once he got it in the future he got it through all time periods, this is rediculous. If this was true then Link and Zelda would have also had their pieces in the past and OoT would have been a much different game.

This is completely my opinion, but I find it to be extremely plausible so here it goes.

I believe that Ganondorf doesn't even know how he got the ToP. It's obvious that he struggled during the execution and he was even dead for a couple seconds. He then, came back to life (as seen by the power of the ToP) and starts laughing. The nature of the laugh leads me to believe that he is laughing at the fact that he had what he was looking for, and what the sages were trying to stop him from getting, all along and never knew it. I think the point is that we aren't supposed to know how he got the ToP and the point is that Ganondorf doesn't even know how he got the ToP, himself.


2- Several very distinct references are made throughout TP which point to its placement in the "adult timeline".
First, at the beginning you get the Hero's Clothes which it strongly implies were once worn by the Link in OoT. But if this was the "child timeline", there was Hero of Time. If Ganondorf was executed before he could conquer Hyrule, then the events of OoT never happened and Link was just Link if you catch my meaning. The only one who would have known that Link was anything but a 'forest boy' was Zelda. Furthermore, Link in OoT didn't recieve his Hero's Clothes until he was an adult. So they would never have existed in the "child timeline".

But it doesn't say that the clothes were worn by the hero of time, it just says they were worn by a great hero and, if you recall, OoT!Link did still save the GDT, Zora's Domain and the Goron village all as a child which I believe would make him a hero in many people's eyes. He also saved an entire other dimension (Termina). And I would assume that these all powerful sages and the Goddesses would still know of what happened in OoT because they seem to be above the normal rules of time and space.

The point is, Based on the child part of OoT and the events of MM, Link was still a hero and TP never specifically calls them "hero of time" clothes. They are only referred to as the heroes clothes so it still works being on the child timeline.


Second, when you recieve the Zora's Tunic in TP Rutela says her husband, King Zora, made them for a great hero. this didn't happen until Link in OoT was an adult. So if this happened in the "child timeline", these could not possibly have been made for the Hero of Time.

The Zora tunic in OoT was in the shop. There is nothing in OoT that says that specific tunic was made for the hero of time. Also, kid Link saved Jabu Jabu which is their God of sorts. This would still make him a hero so even if the tunic was made for a great hero by the King Zora, kid Link was a hero to them for saving the king's daughter and saving Jabu Jabu, all while he was a kid, so this still works with TP being on the child timeline also.


And Third, we see the Biggoron Sword on display in Hyrule castle in TP. This sword was not completed and used by the Hero of Time until he was an adult. Again, this item would not exist in the "child timeline".

This seems like way more of an easter egg than an actual canonical addition to the game. Also, you are assuming that only one Biggoron sword was ever made. TP never states that the sword shown was the same sword used by the hero of time. That's just your own speculation.


Oh and Fourth, the fishing hole in TP has a picture of the master fisherman from OoT holding the Hylian Loach caught by Link, which didn't happen until he was an adult.

As stated earlier, you are just assuming that it's a fish caught by OoT!Link. There is nothing in TP saying that it's the very same fish. The fact that it's a picture of the master fisherman with the fish leads me to believe that it's the master fisherman who caught the fish...


Finaly, I think that certain geographical shifts can be best place in the "adult timeline". Most notably, after the "adult ending" of OoT the castle was left in ruins and would have had to been moved. This explains why the Temple of Time is no where near Castle Town in TP.

In most cases I don't find geography to be a big part of timeline placement. If they kept the map too much like OoT then the entire game would feel old. Of course they changed up the map. It's more for gameplay purposes so that the game feels new.



You make some interesting points but they can easily be explained and made to work perfectly for TP being on the CT. No offense, but most of your pieces of evidence are solely based on your own speculations, such as the picture of the fish being the same fish that OoT!Link caught. Many of the things you said are never once stated in TP. You just read too far into them.

Also, here is a quote by Aonuma.

–When does Twilight Princess take place?

Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

–And the Wind Waker?

Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution. Link and Zelda left him be and he then did something outrageous, so it was decided that he should be executed. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

If it was hard to understand, he was basically saying that WW takes place 100 and something years after OoT and TP takes place 100 and something years after OoT parallel to that (which means on a different timeline).

One of the creators confirmed that TP is on the child timeline so no matter what you say and how much evidence you have, you're wrong. Sorry...

[HeroofAges]

Wow so forceful! Well I appreciate your obvious love for the lore. Just a few points.

Fist is this not a forum for speculation? As such my observations are as accurate as any. Next, there are two ways to get the Tunic in OoT. The first is to pay for it. The other is to free King Zora from the blue ice. If you don't already have it he gives it to you free. If you do have it you get a kiss.

Next it would depend on when you think Zelda sent Link back to . If he went back to AFTER the events of the three child temple, then Ganondorf had already seized the castle he just didn't have the Triforce yet. But since he isn't defeated until the future that means that he is going to show up with the ToP and bring chaos for seven years. Is it more likely that Link was sent to before Ganondorf ever came to Hyrule, and thus before the first three dungeons.

As I said before easter eggs like the sword and fish CAN be random but so few things in Zelda are truely random. Why so many referances to old Link and so few about young Link.

And even if we take that the Hero's Clothes do not necessarily refer to future Link, the clothes of young OoT Link could not possibly fit TP Link.

My last point is this. Do you forget that there have been several instances of Designers either misinforming or being mistaken about timeline related issues? Until a CANON GAME states the exact placement of a particular installment it IS open to discussion. Retcons happen my friend.

I might be wrong but it is also wrong to dismiss an idea purely because it doesn't fit your pre-concieved notions. Any idea based on evidence is at least possibly valid until definitively proven false. If it was one or two small easter eggs I might dismiss them but when the list gets to four or five you have to at least take note. If a game comes out which bridges the gap between MM and TP, and remember it never said theat the HoT returned from that... or an official Timeline is produced, I will continue to look for the little clues that others dismiss or overlook. Trust me I am a big boy. If I am proven wrong I will gladly admit it.

[knowlee]

Wow! I remember those things in TP, but I never actually sat down and thought about them. I always just assumed that it was just a game that happened in the "child timeline" of OoT. Now I'm beginning to wonder if that's true or not.

Oh, and on another note, where is that Biggoron Sword at in Hyrule Castle? I never really noticed that.

Oh, and on another another note, excellent research and attention to detail. I would've never noticed otherwise. :)

[Djinniofpower]

Wow. Sounds good to me, also I kinda want to mention something. It probably doesn't matter but, when you get the hero's bow in Tp they say it used to belong to a great hero. Link only got the bow as the adult I think. That's probably wrong but I just thought I might mention it.

[HeroofAges]

Wow! I remember those things in TP, but I never actually sat down and thought about them. I always just assumed that it was just a game that happened in the "child timeline" of OoT. Now I'm beginning to wonder if that's true or not.

Oh, and on another note, where is that Biggoron Sword at in Hyrule Castle? I never really noticed that.

Oh, and on another another note, excellent research and attention to detail. I would've never noticed otherwise. :)

I don't really remember the exact location of the sword but the vid I posted shows it.


Wow. Sounds good to me, also I kinda want to mention something. It probably doesn't matter but, when you get the hero's bow in Tp they say it used to belong to a great hero. Link only got the bow as the adult I think. That's probably wrong but I just thought I might mention it.

The only issue here is that while it does say it was the bow of a hero, it looks nothing like the fairy bow in Oot.. it could be a redesign but if so it was a drastic one.

[Zemen]

Wow so forceful! Well I appreciate your obvious love for the lore. Just a few points.

Fist is this not a forum for speculation? As such my observations are as accurate as any. Next, there are two ways to get the Tunic in OoT. The first is to pay for it. The other is to free King Zora from the blue ice. If you don't already have it he gives it to you free. If you do have it you get a kiss.

You're basically saying that the King Zora already had the tunic before Link saved him since Link gets it for saving him. This means that the tunic wasn't made for Link but the tunic was already made and given to Link which means the tunic in TP is different from the one in OoT.

Also, you mentioned that young Link's tunic wouldn't be able to fit TP Link. This is true, but if you recall, when young Link goes forward in time, in OoT, he automatically gets a bigger tunic rather than showing up in his small one. It's called magic, bro.

I can understand if the creators accidentally say that it goes on the wrong side of the timeline but the fact that they say that the execution of Ganondorf takes place after peace is brought to "young Link's" time makes it hard to believe they were misinformed. They go in to good detail about why it's on the CT.

You also mentioned that it depends on where you think young Link was sent back to. At the end, when he is sent back we see him walking towards Zelda in the royal garden while she is watching Ganondorf through the window. That particular scene happens AFTER you get the 3 spiritual stones so he IS sent back to a time that is after he gets the 3 spiritual stones.

You are reading way too much into tiny details. There is nothing that says it's the same biggoron sword and nothing that says that it's the same fish that adult Link caught. Those are all completely speculated things by you. Your entire argument is based on speculation where mine is based on in game facts and creator quotes.

[HeroofAges]

Again you assume that I'm taking a stab at you when this is not the case.. I have said I might be wrong but so far you haven't convinced me.. it isn't a knock on you but until I get a game or written timeline disputing my suspicions I will continue to operate under the belief that I MIGHT be right.. sorry friend.. I am not interested in entering into arguments.. You made your point and while I do agree that it makes sense i think.. as apparently do others responding to my post.. that it is far from definitive.

But I do think you deserve a more specific response so here goes..
question 1 about king Zora.. NO I am saying you are wrong that you only get the tunic from a shop.. maybe King Zora already had a tunic that just happened to fit our hero... or maybe the designers didn't see a need to make players wait three days while he 'made' the tunic as it was necessary to advance the story.. Either way yhis is not difinitive proof that I am wrong and is in fact speculation on your part since we are never told where the tunic came from.
As for question 2 about young link's tunic being 'magically' made bigger for him you are again, sadly, mistaken.. Rauru tells the reawakened Hero of Time that these are the clothes of the prophesized hero, paraphrased but acurate to the point.. in other words the hero's clothes and the kokiri tunic, while similar, are not the same thing.
Number 3, when was Link sent back to? Well I am afraid that saying that he definatly went back in time to see zelda watching Ganondorf thus after the three stones is speculation as well as inacurate. You have no way of knowing for sure what Zelda was doing when Link found her in the courtyard at the end.. she obviously liked that garden, and when you meet her durring the game in the courtyard you only have 1 spiritual stone, the Kokiri Emerald, aboy bearing a green light as it were.
As to the last.. well the devil is all to often in the details my friend. Why have a theories page if not to investigate small details and speculations.. Technically, until we get a written, set in stone timeline, all timeline talk is speculative.. your argument wouldn't hold up in court my friend..

And another thing, just because someone has an idea that differs from your own does not make tham wrong... for every piece of evidence one side produces to proove their case the other has something equally compelling.. one can debate without being argumentative or downputting.
Cheers!!! :)

[zzRICHzz]

i wanna say that you have some really really good points... and i remember when i played WW for the first time and they were talking about how Link left Hyrule, i always assumed that they meant when Young Link goes to Termina...

i like all your speculations HoA...

but as far as at what point in time is Link sent back to??

i personally believe that it is after he opens the door of time... because when he is sent back, Zelda sends him back to the pedestal of time where he replaces the sword and Navi flys out the window. What that means is he would have had to have walked out of the temple and he wouldn't have been able to get out if the door was closed... it would make sense in support of your theory cuz then he would still be acknowledged for what he did for Zora's Domain, The Gorons, and The GDT... and i dont really think the fisherman thing was more than a simple easteregg

other than that though i gotta say good job dude!!! i'll make sure to keep an eye out for more of your posts

[HeroofAges]

The only flaw here is that technically zelda the sage could open the door of time for him to let him out.... and in the end cinematic we see an exact reproduction of Link and Zelda's first meeting leading to the belief that Zelda is watching Ganondorf through the window and Link only has the Kokiri Emerald... If he was sent back to after he opened the door of time then he would be too late to stop ganon from entering the Sacred Realm right behind him and claiming the Triforce of power.. basically Ganongdorf would reemerge from the Sacred Realm a short time later and mop the floor with our young hero... unless Link is in Termina when Ganondorf returns thus leading the Goddesses to flood the land.. but back to point, if Link arrived after the Door of Time was opened then Ganondorf would have been right behind him and warning the king would have been futile.. instead of being a hero Link would be the scum who let Ganondorf have the Triforce and wipe out Hyrule.... see what i mean?

[Zemen]

until I get a game or written timeline disputing my suspicions I will continue to operate under the belief that I MIGHT be right

So the creators saying what happens in the game and specifically say it happens after the child events of OoT doesn't count as a written/spoken dispute against your argument?

You're waiting for a solid dispute against your argument and I have clearly already posted one with ample in game evidence.

[HeroofAges]

*sigh... it was also said at one time that there was a single timeline... and have there not been multiple false or misleading timelines 'leaked' by so-called insiders? Again.. I may be wrong but I am not convinced. I am sorry but you haven't won me over.

There is a big difference between saying that I MIGHT be or PROBABLY am wrong and saying flat out NO YOU ARE WRONG!! Unless you yourself are a game designer involved in the process you have no business telling me I can't be right. I am only saying it COULD be a certain way... not that it is. I called it a theory not a fact friend.

You see you are trying to PROVE me wrong... the thing is I am not stating that I am right. I just give one interpretation of the evidence. I have never said that TP IS in the adult timeline only that it could be based on in-game material. How about instead of "You are wrong because..." we try "I believe the other theory because..."

Look, I don't mean to be short with you but I feel that I am talking to a wall here. For heavens sake dude.. LIGHTEN UP.... it is a great game but it is still a game. I am not interested in continuing an unproductive debate with someone who is not interested in back and forth but only in shoving their 'facts' down my throat. From what I have seen of your posts if you don't like or agree with something you rail against the theory and whoever posted it. May I suggest that if you do not like speculation you stop reading theory posts........

[Zemen]

*sigh... it was also said at one time that there was a single timeline

By single timeline I'm assuming you mean a linear timeline (a.k.a. no split).

You're right, at one point it was said that there was a linear timeline, but this was only until WW was made and after WW was made the split was confirmed. Up until WW, there was a linear timeline. With that in mind, the linear timeline was correct. It's not like after WW was made they kept telling us that things were linear. You made a very moot point by bringing that up.

[HeroofAges]

Actually WW changed the designers plan for the timeline. They retconned the whole thing so technically the split occurrs durring OoT not WW. Who is to say that they won't do the same here and release a game that confirms my theory. Like I said, based on the track record they could, concievably, decide to place TP in the adult timeline and have plenty of material to support themselves.

In short with WW they changed their minds. Unless you read minds you cannot be sure they won't or haven't done it again. Untill they hand you personally a timeline and say this is it... you have just as much chance of being right as the rest of us.

[Skull_Kid]

They said that the timeline was linear, before WW, I believe, but, WW changed everything, and they felt the need to split the timeline.
The latter saying is what counts to date, and, as far as I know, Both SHIGGY and EIJI admitted that there was a split... yes, the SPLIT IS REAL.


Also, don't get me wrong, but I think that the Video you showed claiming that the big sword was in fact, the biggoron sword, was absolutely absurd.
So, are you saying that all big swords in Zelda are made By Biggoron?absurd.

Also, the enigmatic execution scene, shows us that, at the beggining, Ganondorf was as surprised as the sages were.
And never forget the term "divine prank", said by one of the sages.
In the Child Timeline, Ganondorf never entered the Temple of Time and never obtained the Triforce of Power, yet, somehow, it was granted to him, before the events of TP

[MrMosley]

1- Durring the cinematic I mentioned above, Ganondorf survives his execution because of the power of the Triforce of Power. In the "child timeline" Ganondorf never got the Triforce so how could he use it to save himself. And to those who say that once he got it in the future he got it through all time periods, this is rediculous. If this was true then Link and Zelda would have also had their pieces in the past and OoT would have been a much different game.

It is described in TP that Ganondorf acquired his piece of the Triforce "by some divine prank". So like Zemen said above, he doesn't know how he got it, and really neither does anyone else. The word "divine" usually applies to the work of a god or goddess. So my guess is that the goddesses placed the power of the Triforce into Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf by the time of his execution anyway. It is said throughout one of the games, maybe multiple games, that there are three chosen to hold the Triforce. These three are the different generations of Link, Zelda, and finally, the one and only Ganondorf.


2- Several very distinct references are made throughout TP which point to its placement in the "adult timeline".
First, at the beginning you get the Hero's Clothes which it strongly implies were once worn by the Link in OoT. But if this was the "child timeline", there was Hero of Time. If Ganondorf was executed before he could conquer Hyrule, then the events of OoT never happened and Link was just Link if you catch my meaning. The only one who would have known that Link was anything but a 'forest boy' was Zelda. Furthermore, Link in OoT didn't recieve his Hero's Clothes until he was an adult. So they would never have existed in the "child timeline".

Like some above posts mentioned as well, young Link was a hero in his own right. Zemen mentioned that it did not mention the Hero of Time specifically, on the "hero". However, I believe that the story of the Hero of Time is still known to the people of Hyrule even in the Child Timeline. The intro to Wind Waker tells of the Hero traveling through time to save Hyrule. I would assume that by young Link telling Zelda, who informs the King, of Ganondorf's plans, he had to have mentioned that he went through time to do so. I doubt Link only said "Ganondorf is a bad guy", to Zelda. He probably told her of his entire adventure, which was passed down through legend.


Second, when you recieve the Zora's Tunic in TP Rutela says her husband, King Zora, made them for a great hero. this didn't happen until Link in OoT was an adult. So if this happened in the "child timeline", these could not possibly have been made for the Hero of Time.

That is a good point. But the Zora Tunic appears very different from the one in OoT. Maybe they just wanted to add details to it, who knows. Some people speculate that the King Zora mentioned in TP is a different one from the King Zora in OoT, which is possible. There was a King Zora in OoA as well. But that would cause a problem with the timeline if it were talking about the Hero of Time. One thing though, is that the Zora Tunic in OoT wasn't actually made by King Zora. The tunic already existed. You could even buy one in the shop in Zora's Domain. King Zora simply gave one to Link.


And Third, we see the Biggoron Sword on display in Hyrule castle in TP. This sword was not completed and used by the Hero of Time until he was an adult. Again, this item would not exist in the "child timeline".

Most likely a cameo. If it were the actual Biggoron Sword, and had any symbolic value or relativity to the timeline or the Hero of Time, they would have put a description below it. Besides, there are notable differences in the Biggoron Sword and the one shown in the castle. But I would think that they intended it to be the Biggoron Sword, strictly making a cameo appearance.


Oh and Fourth, the fishing hole in TP has a picture of the master fisherman from OoT holding the Hylian Loach caught by Link, which didn't happen until he was an adult.

Honestly, I can't say that I remember this. I didn't spend a whole lot of time in the fishing place in TP, nor have I ever actually fished in the game. But if it just showed a picture of the fisherman holding the Hylian Loach, with no description, anyone could have caught it. The fisherman himself could have caught it.

The idea that TP comes on the Child Timeline, opposite of WW, is quite obvious to me. There are more things that point to it being where most believe it is than things that may barely cause it to appear on the Adult Timeline. For example, the whole excecution scene would not have taken place had Ganondorf been locked away in the Evil Realm as he was at the end of OoT. This event, taking place on the Adult Timeline, was proven to be consistent until he managed to escape, which caused the events of WW. If TP took place on the AT, then technically, it would have to come before WW, which would then cause WW's backstory and multiple elements connecting it to the AT of OoT, useless. And we know for a fact that WW comes on the Adult Timeline after OoT because of countless references made throughout OoT, such as the main factor of the Hero of Time not returning. He didn't return because he was sent back through time. Link never went back forward through time afterwards, and he sure wasn't stuck in Termina because he left after defeating Majora. The final scene of the game shows Link on Epona back in the Lost Woods.

Another big thing is the Sages. They have no specific features like the ones in the Adult Timeline of OoT do. That is because the Sages did not have to awaken in Saria, Darunia, Ruto, etc., in the Child Timeline, because the Temples throughout Hyrule never became infested with evil. Whenever Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and claimed the Triforce, it is said that the realm became a place of evil. I believe this comes from some text in WW. Anyway, the Sages protect the temples, and the temples are linked with the Sacred Realm. The sages had to awaken in those people from OoT because of Ganondorf entering the SR and causing all the evil to get into the temples. That is why the stained glass in Hyrule Castle in WW, where the Master Sword is held, shows the Sages as they were from OoT; because they were awakened as such on the Adult Timeline. Had these Sages not been awakened, they would have kept their original form, which is showin in TP. And of course, in the Child Timeline, they were not awakened, which is why they appear the way they do in TP.

Last, a main selling point is the location of the Master Sword. Before TP, we saw this blade play big roles in OoT and ALttP. In OoT, it was located in the Temple of Time. In ALttP, it was in the Lost Woods for some odd reason. By the time TP comes out, we see the Master Sword in the ruins of the Temple of Time, where the Lost Woods have apparently extended onto. So if you are convinced by geographical changes, this is a key point:

*Master Sword in pedestal in Temple of Time at end of OoT
-Some hundred years later, Lost Woods grow around the Temple of Time, which has fallen apart
**Master Sword in pedestal in Temple of Time ruins, becoming the Lost Woods
-Some hundred years later again, ruins are completely gone. Lost Woods have grown extensively, only the pedestal now remains.
***Master Sword in pedestal in Lost Woods

Also, you say that the developers could easily come back and change their minds about the timeline, making it linear again or possibly putting TP on the Adult Timeline. I have give my reasons why TP can't go on the AT. For the developers to change their minds now about the split would be rediculous. It would cause way too many problems with the games.

This is how the linear timeline supposidly looked prior to the split

OoT/MM--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL--OoX or OoT/MM--ALttP/LA--OoX--LoZ/AoL

With the Oracles changing their position, since they are still pretty much up for debate and can go either place. These were the only games before WW, and it is easy enough to make a timeline without WW at this point. After Ganondorf was sealed in the Evil Realm at the end of OoT, Link went back in time to Termina, then that was it for that Link. Later on, Ganondorf, still sealed away, turns the SR into the Dark World. That causes ALttP, followed by LA. Later, Ganon is attempted to be revived by Twinrova in OoX. That doesn't work. Then later he shows up in LoZ somehow. Or just switch those last two sentences around for the second version of the linear timeline.

Now when you throw WW into that mix, then your saying that Ganondorf actually escaped prior to ALttP. The story suddenly begins focusing on what happened after Link went back through time. Ganondorf escaped, and Link was not there. It put an entirely new story in there between OoT and ALttP, which has to be fitted in that position. ALttP now cannot come after WW because Hyrule is gone. That makes the split official. But even if you still weren't swayed by WW, you have TP to come out, and clearly shows what happens after the events of the Child Timeline, which even further solidifies the idea of the split timeline. You have TP, a game that fits easily between OoT and ALttP on the Child Timeline because of various reasons mentioned above.

[Midna666]

Eiji Aonuma has said that Twilight Princess and Wind Waker take place in different timelines.
What he says is canon, end of story.

[HeroofAges]

Ok.. so here goes.. I have never once claimed or implied that I deny a split timeline so I will not argue that point. I said that the split timeline resulted from a change of heart by the designers and that future changes might result in the alteration of many of our ideas and notions. I do not and have not implied that they would ever do away with a split time line.

Second I am not saying that all big swords are made by biggoron. I said that I believe it could be interpretted as Biggoron's Sword. For the designers to put a sword identical to it in the game they must have had a reason. Maybe it is to imply a link between games. Or it could be a 'cameo'. I repeat that I have never said that my theory IS FACT. I have only said it is possible based on certain pieces of evidence.

Now Darklink01 I have to say that you have made a good and thourough argument without being ignorant or overly forceful and I appreciate it. I bow to your knowledge of lore. I only have a minor correction. I never said they could make the timeline linear again. I meant to imply that future canon changes are possible because the plans of the designers are constantly evolving.

And Midna... I never said they couldn't exist oon seperate timelines. I suggested that they MIGHT be on opposite sides of the existing timeline.. ie WW on the child timeline and TP on the adult timeline...... Again though, not a statement of what I persieve to be fact only a theory

[sign of table]

Eiji Aonuma has said that Twilight Princess and Wind Waker take place in different timelines.
What he says is canon, end of story. ^This. This gives us EVERY SINGLE RIGHT to say that we are 100% correct and that you are wrong.

*sigh... it was also said at one time that there was a single timeline... and have there not been multiple false or misleading timelines 'leaked' by so-called insiders? Again.. I may be wrong but I am not convinced. I am sorry but you haven't won me over.


There is a big difference between saying that I MIGHT be or PROBABLY am wrong and saying flat out NO YOU ARE WRONG!! Unless you yourself are a game designer involved in the process you have no business telling me I can't be right. I am only saying it COULD be a certain way... not that it is. I called it a theory not a fact friend. Ok. Would you appreciate it if I said that at this point in time you have a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% chance of being wrong?

At this point in time you are wrong. Eiji Aonuma, the current director of the series, and Shigeru Miyamoto, the creator of the series who is still important, have both said on multiple occassions that there is a split timeline.

You're being stupid (I'm not saying you are stupid. Just saying what you're doing now is stupid. (just needed to make sure you and the mods understood that since the modship here is much tigher than that of ZI or, hell, ZU).

It's fact. The Earth is round. That's a fact. I can believe in a theory that states that the Earth is flat. But at the end of the day the Earth is still round.
EDIT: Damn it it makes it seem like I misunderstood your argument... that's what I get for skimming lol. I might reedit this post if I end up thoroughly reading your OP, but for now I might as well keep this as my post for all people who don't believe the split timeline.

[HeroofAges]

9) Opinions. Remember, this is a community forum and there will always be different opinions. All members are entitled to their own opinion as long as it does not break any rules. (Rule #4, don't flame somebody for having a different opinion). Especially take this into account within the Theorizing area of the forums, as well as the Mature Discussion. In both cases, there are hardly ever any concrete answers and things can always be interpreted differently. Let's try to be fair towards all members while also be constructive.

Making sure we are all aware of the rules her... Again it isn't that you disagree with me that bothers me but the tone being used.... it is possible to disagree without being ignorant.. I am not an idiot kid who gets intimidated when names on a web-page get forceful and use big words at me... I am married and have kids and in the end I have way better things to do with my time then get talked down to by people who don't know me..

I repeat for the last time..... I AM NOT MAKING STATEMENTS OF FACT BUT GIVING ONE POSSIBLE THEORY... I HAVE NOT EVER SAID THAT I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG... I ONLY PUT DOWN MY OBSERVATIONS AND ONE INTRIGUING INTERPRETATION OF THEM... I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT THE PEOPLE MAKING THE GAMES ARE WRONG ONLY THAT THEY HAVE, IN THE PAST CHANGED THEIR MINDS OR ALTERED THEIR PLANS TO ACCOMMODATE NEW MATERIAL (IE THEY CREATED THE SPLIT TIMELINE BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO EXPLAIN WIND WAKER'S PLACE IN THE MYTHOS)...

Ok, so to recap, I don't mean to be argumentative but I resent being talked to as if I am an idiot.... In the end I am not impressed by anyone who feels to need to try to belittle me with their vast knowledge of a video game. I would like to maintain a possitive relationship with anyone willing to be mature. I appreciate and acknowledge the statements of the ZELDA gods who provide us with these wonderful games. I do not and have not at any point declared them to be wrong. The fact is that sometimes what they say and what they do are not the same. I repeat for the last time that I only gave you a theory and a theory is in no way a declaration of fact and in fact is not even neccesarily a declaration of what I believe. I do not have to believe a theory to think it is interesting..... At this time I place Twilight Princess on the child timeline however I for one would not be surprised if a future instalment placed it on the adult timeline instead.

Finaly, to those who keep arguing the split vs. linear thing... I AGREE that there is a split! I never said that there wasn't and I never said that they could or would change it. Please read my posts carefully beforeresponding. I can not tolerate being misquoted.

[sign of table]

Your OP is extremely misleading because you act as if you believe in TP on the AT... I assume that's where most of this is coming from (I have yet to read all of your posts in this thread... sorry I thought that when the title talks about the placement of a confirmed game, the OP talking about a CT placement, etc, that it would have been very repetitive to read all the other posts when looking at the last post it seems to be talking about your belief in TP on the CT I assumed that you did believe in that... (good god that was one bad run-on sentence...)). It'd be great to edit the OP to make it more clear that you are stating a "possible" theory instead of what you believe.

Sorry if I was rude. I just really, really, hate it when people talk about the linear timeline and still believe in it. So sorry if I was rude in the process of trying to correct your beliefs, or what I thought were your beliefs.

[HeroofAges]

Point taken.. I should look a little more closely at my wording when I post.. Thank you SoJ