Minish Cap NOT the First Game?

[DvSag]

So I've been playing through TLoZ Minish Cap, and I've been trading magic shells for figurines. blah blah blah

Well, I won Nayru's figurine, and it said something pretty... odd...

"She's looking for a house in Hyrule to move into. She is a descended from a line of priestesses in the land of Labrynna."

So... wtf? She descended from the Nayru of OoX? Isn't Labrynna the land from OoX? The game with Nayru the sage?
I'm so confused now.

[ChargewithSword]

Honestly, these girls seem more like incarnations of their OOX parts. They have no real power according to me since they can't control the Seasons or Time.

[DvSag]

Honestly, these girls seem more like incarnations of their OOX parts. They have no real power according to me since they can't control the Seasons or Time.
Right, so what I mean is that would make the OoX games take place BEFORE MC, right?

[ChargewithSword]

Right, so what I mean is that would make the OoX games take place BEFORE MC, right?

No, I just said incarnations. Different from the oracles of Seasons and Time unless you have proof Mr. Wright. Because if this did take place before OoX, the existance of the Triforce would have been known.

[Skull_Kid]

Honestly, these girls seem more like incarnations of their OOX parts. They have no real power according to me since they can't control the Seasons or Time.


What if it is the other way around?
The OoX counterparts can be descendants of them, and, we don't see any facts implying that they can not control either seasons or time, or do we?
This is a fact that never bugged me, as it makes perfect sense what I said.
FS(not FSA) was said to be the first one in the Timeline(it was stated by either Eiji and Shiggy), and MC is clearly a sequel, so i guess everything comes after them

[Zemen]

like skull kid said, why cant the OoX oracles be descendants of these oracles who are descendants of past oracles from those places? this doesnt mean that MC comes after, it could just be proof that they are on the same timeline. it could just as easily be proof that MC is before OoX.

[Johnny Boy]

That is actually a very good point even though I never even noticed it, (and I have all 136 figurines too). According to what the description says, it's acting like they are direct desendents of the original oracles from the Oracle series. Now, I'm not a hardcore timeline enthusiast, but I can see what DvSag is getting at here. I'm actually gonna say that the Oracle games come first in the timeline in this case. Now, I am most likely wrong though so don't really listen to me.

[Zemen]

That is actually a very good point even though I never even noticed it, (and I have all 136 figurines too). According to what the description says, it's acting like they are direct desendents of the original oracles from the Oracle series. Now, I'm not a hardcore timeline enthusiast, but I can see what DvSag is getting at here. I'm actually gonna say that the Oracle games come first in the timeline in this case. Now, I am most likely wrong though so don't really listen to me.

Ganon cannot be in any Zelda game that comes before OoT. OoX is basically about twinrova trying to ressurect Ganon, which means he was dead before OoX. OoT is the introduction of ganon/dorf which means any game before it on a timeline wont have ganon/dorf in it or any mention of ganon/dorf in it.

and as i said earlier, the statement on the figurines could just as easily mean that OoX comes after MC.

[DvSag]

Ganon cannot be in any Zelda game that comes before OoT. OoX is basically about twinrova trying to ressurect Ganon, which means he was dead before OoX. OoT is the introduction of ganon/dorf which means any game before it on a timeline wont have ganon/dorf in it or any mention of ganon/dorf in it.
So, where might Four Sword Adventures fall on the timeline, then? I thought it was before OoT, too.

[Zemen]

So, where might Four Sword Adventures fall on the timeline, then? I thought it was before OoT, too.

FSA is a pretty obvious sequel to ALTTP. The maps are very similar and after you beat the game in ALTTP, you can go to the palace of the four sword in the dark world. In this palace, you find the broken four sword which means that whatever was trapped in it, escaped. At the end of FSA, Ganon was trapped in the Four Sword. This is evidence that ALTTP takes place after Ganon is freed from the Four Sword which would mean that FSA is a prequel of ALTTP.

[Matt]

I might place it at the start, or I might put it further up. There really is nothing solid to say either way. That whole it-explains-how-Link-got-his-cap thing is just a load of crap. It holds no water in real theories.

[MrMosley]

Ganon cannot be in any Zelda game that comes before OoT. OoX is basically about twinrova trying to ressurect Ganon, which means he was dead before OoX. OoT is the introduction of ganon/dorf which means any game before it on a timeline wont have ganon/dorf in it or any mention of ganon/dorf in it.

and as i said earlier, the statement on the figurines could just as easily mean that OoX comes after MC.

Unless of course Ganon was a different being a long time ago. It has been said that he is the "ancient demon 'reborn'", and that Twinrova are his surrogate mothers. In my opinion, there is the possibility that a long time ago, Ganon, in his pig form, existed. Eventually, Triwnrova could have revived this ancient demon withing the body of Ganondorf. Ganon could be the true embodiment of the demon within Ganondorf in this case. I know its a bit of a stretch and a theory that most people wouldn't agree with, but it is a possibility.

[ChargewithSword]

Unless of course Ganon was a different being a long time ago. It has been said that he is the "ancient demon 'reborn'", and that Twinrova are his surrogate mothers. In my opinion, there is the possibility that a long time ago, Ganon, in his pig form, existed. Eventually, Triwnrova could have revived this ancient demon withing the body of Ganondorf. Ganon could be the true embodiment of the demon within Ganondorf in this case. I know its a bit of a stretch and a theory that most people wouldn't agree with, but it is a possibility.

Um Dark_Link... that was a mistranslation. It sorta went something like "evil demon" or something, I can't find the post that told me this exactly but I know it is a mistranslation.

[Matt]

Um Dark_Link... that was a mistranslation. It sorta went something like "evil demon" or something, I can't find the post that told me this exactly but I know it is a mistranslation.

In the later games, there is no such thing as a mistranslation. All the differences are do to localization only. Whenever you translate something, it comes out a bit weird no matter what. So you have to adjust things to the target culture. This is called localization. You see the teams behind it in the credits of each game. As of A Link to the Past, there are no mistranslations. They don't exist in the series after that.

[ChargewithSword]

In the later games, there is no such thing as a mistranslation. All the differences are do to localization only. Whenever you translate something, it comes out a bit weird no matter what. So you have to adjust things to the target culture. This is called localization. You see the teams behind it in the credits of each game. As of A Link to the Past, there are no mistranslations. They don't exist in the series after that.

That does not change that the message is not like the Japanese one and is not the same meaning.

[MrMosley]

I could understand them mistranslating one word for another, but I don't see how they could add an entirely new word that wasn't even there in the Japanese text. As I have stated before, I don't know Japanese, and I don't really look into the mistranslations a whole lot between the games. So all I really have to go on is what I get to see. But the word "reborn" is what is key in my previous post, and I don't see why they would just get that from nothing.

[ChargewithSword]

I could understand them mistranslating one word for another, but I don't see how they could add an entirely new word that wasn't even there in the Japanese text. As I have stated before, I don't know Japanese, and I don't really look into the mistranslations a whole lot between the games. So all I really have to go on is what I get to see. But the word "reborn" is what is key in my previous post, and I don't see why they would just get that from nothing.

Perhaps they wanted to just add facts to the game. Like how the NoA translaters hinted at MidnaxLink when at the end of TP they change:

"Link...s...see you."
to
"Link... I... See you later."

[Matt]

That does not change that the message is not like the Japanese one and is not the same meaning.

Sort of the whole point. Meanings will be different because things have to be localized to the target culture. So all you will get is really messed up theories if you cross languages when making said theories.

Theories would radically different in each language. German theories would be different from English. As would just regular Japanese.

It is a tough choice, go with just the localized versions, or dabble in a bit of the Japanese too. Either way it will mess it up.

About being canonical or not. It is not as simple as "Oh it was in Japan first so that's what's canon". If that is how you think, then nothing in the translated versions could be canon. Because it would not be the original. And most of the text would be very different.

The logical approach would be to just stick with the localized version you have. For those in America that would be the NoA versions.

[ChargewithSword]

Sort of the whole point. Meanings will be different because things have to be localized to the target culture. So all you will get is really messed up theories if you cross languages when making said theories.

Theories would radically different in each language. German theories would be different from English. As would just regular Japanese.

It is a tough choice, go with just the localized versions, or dabble in a bit of the Japanese too. Either way it will mess it up.

About being canonical or not. It is not as simple as "Oh it was in Japan first so that's what's canon". If that is how you think, then nothing in the translated versions could be canon. Because it would not be the original. And most of the text would be very different.

The logical approach would be to just stick with the localized version you have. For those in America that would be the NoA versions.

Frankly a translation could be incredibly close to the Japanese version since you can see that internet subbers usually manage to get the correct translations.

That argument is mute unless there were never many changes in phrases and their meanings.

[ShellShocker]

To me, the Minish Cap is still first and those girls are just incarnations. I doubt they could time travel anyway. It was announced that The Minish Cap was the first in the series once, I'd I'm sticking to that until I see differently.

Those sages could even been from Holodrum or where-ever and came here for a break. Then they could return back to their rightful places and become the Oracles. Perhaps they make the special drinks for you to practice their magic.

Maybe those girls are just copy-cats and act like the others, or just have the same name and dress alike. Zelda is very mysterious. Forgive if I got some information wrong because I haven't played either of the Oracles.

[Zemen]

Unless of course Ganon was a different being a long time ago. It has been said that he is the "ancient demon 'reborn'", and that Twinrova are his surrogate mothers. In my opinion, there is the possibility that a long time ago, Ganon, in his pig form, existed. Eventually, Triwnrova could have revived this ancient demon withing the body of Ganondorf. Ganon could be the true embodiment of the demon within Ganondorf in this case. I know its a bit of a stretch and a theory that most people wouldn't agree with, but it is a possibility.

It's a nice theory, except there is one big problem with it. The fact that the creators have told us that OoT is the first in the timeline and the only exception to that is possibly MC which does not have Ganon/dorf in it. You can believe that all you want, but at the end of the day I'm going with the creators word that has yet to be contradicted after many years.

[Steve]

Minish Cap is one of those Zelda games, that really makes me want to beat my head into the wall. The problem with it is all of the cameos, such as Beetle and the Goron merchants, the whole thing is really a huge mess. I don't think these cameos are meant to be taken likely, and are simply non-canonical, just as the trophies of the SSB series are not canonical.

[Zemen]

Minish Cap is one of those Zelda games, that really makes me want to beat my head into the wall. The problem with it is all of the cameos, such as Beetle and the Goron merchants, the whole thing is really a huge mess. I don't think these cameos are meant to be taken likely, and are simply non-canonical, just as the trophies of the SSB series are not canonical.

I would have to agree with you. People use those cameos as evidence way too much. It seems like most of the arguments come from those cameos. Chances are that the only reason a Goron merchant is used is because the game was made around the same time as WW was made and they wanted to use the design again. How do we know that there were no Goron merchants before WW? Just because they arent around in other games doesnt mean they arent there.

[Darunia]

I noticed something when I was playing Minish Cap.
Dampe, the graveyard keeper is alive in MC but he is a ghost in OoT

[angelkid]

I noticed something when I was playing Minish Cap.
Dampe, the graveyard keeper is alive in MC but he is a ghost in OoT

Erm he's alive in OoT as a child but as an adult he is dead.

[Erimgard]

Sort of the whole point. Meanings will be different because things have to be localized to the target culture. So all you will get is really messed up theories if you cross languages when making said theories.

Theories would radically different in each language. German theories would be different from English. As would just regular Japanese.

It is a tough choice, go with just the localized versions, or dabble in a bit of the Japanese too. Either way it will mess it up.

About being canonical or not. It is not as simple as "Oh it was in Japan first so that's what's canon". If that is how you think, then nothing in the translated versions could be canon. Because it would not be the original. And most of the text would be very different.

The logical approach would be to just stick with the localized version you have. For those in America that would be the NoA versions.

Easy to say when you don't take into account that the translator for Zelda from 1992-2000 openly admits that he wasn't fluent in Japanese

Trinen is much better than Owsen, but he still changes things that need not be changed.

[Skull_Kid]

I noticed something when I was playing Minish Cap.
Dampe, the graveyard keeper is alive in MC but he is a ghost in OoT

That's also because there are different Dampés.
I could make an extensive list of characters that are recurrent, even though they are Not the same, only in look and name.
It's kinda like every main Final Fantasy after FFII having a character named Cid.

[Chrono]

Considering the ghost of King Gustaf (I think thats how its spelled) was an ancient King of Hyrule, then a lot has already happened prior to TMC. And I don't think we ever found out the King's name in OoT....

[ironknuckle1]

Well in the timeline I believe in it works but I really don't mess around with the timelines because there are so many ways that it could be arranged but the one I believe is on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2g65jL3HDg

[Zarom]

I just tought about something.

In MC, in the legend they are referring to the Hero of the Humans, right? Correct me if I'm wrong (I have not played the game), but I think that MC could take place on the Child Timeline. Why? Because on the CT, Link in OOT has never been the Hero of Time. Adult Link was, but not Young Link.

What do you think of that?

[fiercedeity619]

I just tought about something.

In MC, in the legend they are referring to the Hero of the Humans, right? Correct me if I'm wrong (I have not played the game), but I think that MC could take place on the Child Timeline. Why? Because on the CT, Link in OOT has never been the Hero of Time. Adult Link was, but not Young Link.

What do you think of that?

but the hero can't have a hat. in the stainglass window it shows the hero without a hat. and before people say that the tunic says otherwise, if you look closely swiftblade the 1st has a tunic on that is the same style. and since he is a gosht his clothes turn gray with him so i believe that he is the hero and that MC is first on the timeline.

EDIT: also the person in the stainglass has very long hair like swiftblade the 1st

[Sparky]

From the small part just after the credits, i'm near certain MC was the first.

Obviously there will always be credible logic to argue it, but oh wells.

[Octo Rocked]

Minish cap can't come first anyway. OoT's backstory starts with Hyrule's creation, the Triforce left behind, and then a war over the Triforce, during which Link ended up in Kokiri forest. No matter where Minish Cap falls, OoT has to be before it, since Hyrule was created shortly before OoT, and, as Minish Cap takes place in Hyrule, the only way it could be first is if there were two Links co-existing at the same time.

[Zemen]

Minish cap can't come first anyway. OoT's backstory starts with Hyrule's creation, the Triforce left behind, and then a war over the Triforce, during which Link ended up in Kokiri forest. No matter where Minish Cap falls, OoT has to be before it, since Hyrule was created shortly before OoT, and, as Minish Cap takes place in Hyrule, the only way it could be first is if there were two Links co-existing at the same time.

No where in OoT does it say that Hyrule was created shortly before OoT. All it is is a legend of how Hyrule came to be. Just because the story is told does not mean that it comes shortly before. Based on the technology, traditions of the people and advancement of the other races in the game, I would say that there are hundreds/thousands of years between the creation of Hyrule and OoT. Also, for all you know a war over the Triforce could have started after MC. If you didn't know this, the Triforce is never mentioned in MC (unless you're an easter egg lover). I would bet money that this is because not many people actually know what the Triforce is. It could just be seen as a symbol of the royal family. Maybe sometime after MC the true nature of the Triforce was revealed and that caused a war to break loose to try and capture it. Thus leading into OoT.

Of course that is all theory, but there is literally no evidence to support that OoT takes place shortly after the actual creation of Hyrule.

[Octo Rocked]

Still, to those using the whole "MC is first because that's where Link gets his hat" argument, OoT explains where Link got his green wardrobe in the first place. Those clothes he wears? All the Kokiri wear them.

[Zemen]

But there is no proof that the Kokiri started the green hat and tunic trend. Just because they wear it does not make them the first to ever wear it. Here are a couple theories I have come up with.

1. The Piccori actually become the Kokiri by some means. I have more to expand on that but this isn't the thread for that.

2. The Piccori who happen to be stationed in the forest and mainly reside in the forest and only show themselves to kids met up with the Kokiri who are a race of children who live in the forest and the Piccori told the Kokiri of their hero (MC Link) and the Kokiri are so amazed by this hero that they fashion themselves in his image.

There is no quote in OoT that says that the Kokiri are the original beholders of the green hat and tunic. They could have easily gotten the design from their clothing from a past hero. Also notice that the Kokiri and the Piccori wear very similarly designed tunics with the jagged bottoms.