The Seal/Imprisoning War

[sign of table]

Ok so this could go in the other theorizing section but since this is very related to the timeline I thought I'd post it here.

What is the general thought on the SW (Seal War), the BS (Back Story) of LttP? Do you think it is OoT or do you think it isn't related to anything?

I've been having trouble deciding whether the SNES LttP manual or the GBA manual is canon. If the SNES manual is more canon then OoT really can't be the SW, but if the GBA manual is more canon then OoT could be the SW.

So post your opinions and such here.

[ChargewithSword]

Well the GBA version lacked the detail of the SNES manual so I believe perhaps the SNES manual makes better sense. In truth the GBA out does the SNES in graphical translation because the GBA can hold more memory. However back then, manuals were your source of story so I'd say the SNES is the canonical one.

I believe the Seal War to be FSA since it does make sense. Although the game doesn't describe the maidens as sages. The events surrounding it are almost perfect. The Knights of Hyrule make this theory tighter.

[sign of table]

Replying to Smertios' post from the other thread. But it was off topic there so I'm replying here.
OK, please pardon me but I didn't understand what you meant here.

First, what FSA beta?
Second, please list the contradictions between the SNES LttP BS and OoT.
Third, Ganon was sealed at the end of OoT, SEVEN years after he got the ToP. 1) Go to ZU and look at threads Erimgard has made. He made one about deleted FSA text from the beta. FSA was originally meant to be the SW.
2) Ok I'll need to go in depth here. So I'll be using SNES Japanese manual
That is, until one day, completely by chance, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by by a certain group of thieves. Group of theives. The Gerudo. So the Gerudo and Ganondorf got to the SR.
The group began to push aside one another, changing the color of their eyes, and tried to pressed forward. So the group began to fight.
After the bloody confrontation among comrades had ended, the victor was the leader of the group. Leader is Ganondorf. So it looks like Ganondorf killed some Gerudo... wait that didn't happen in OoT.
The King of Hyrule called upon the Seven Sages of Hyrule, as well as the Knights to seal the source of this evil. Hmm I guess the seven sages were awakened immediatly instead of after 7 years.
The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it. That implies that they didn't find a hero to use it.
However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace. This one is important. It shows that Ganon has not taken over Hyrule yet.
Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one. Wait so the SW is happening before Ganondorf even takes over the palace?
The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted, this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal. Ok I see Ganon was sealed the night he got the Triforce.

3) Exactly. Ganon was sealed in the SW the night he got the Triforce. Whereas in OoT he was sealed 7 years later.

[Smertios]

I'll annalyse that text later. My head is full of things right now...

[Midna666]

The Seal War is one of these things Nintendo messed up.
OOT was meant to be the Seal War,but then Nintendo made games like WW,and TP,which has made things more confusing.

Also the SNES instruction book for ALTTP is not canon.
NOA messed that up.

Yeah the whole Seal War is a mess,that I doubt Nintendo will ever fix.

[ChargewithSword]

The Seal War is one of these things Nintendo messed up.
OOT was meant to be the Seal War,but then Nintendo made games like WW,and TP,which has made things more confusing.

Also the SNES instruction book for ALTTP is not canon.
NOA messed that up.

Yeah the whole Seal War is a mess,that I doubt Nintendo will ever fix.

Actually he is talking about the Japanese instruction manual.

[Skull_Kid]

The Imprisoning war makes sense to be the BS of ALttP, if it is actually the events of FSA,wich makes perfect sense

[Erimgard]

The Imprisoning war makes sense to be the BS of ALttP, if it is actually the events of FSA,wich makes perfect sense

Let's see:

Seal War:
Ganon and a group of thieves discover the opening to the Sacred Realm "by chance"
Ganon kills all the theives
Ganon obtains the Triforce and wishes (his wish is unknown)
Evil power flows out of the Sacred Realm and surrounds Hyrule Castle
Seven Sages are ordered by the King to cast a Seal on the Sacred Realm
Knights protect them, and are wiped out
The Seal is cast


....NONE of that is in FSA.
The only thing remotely close is that there are dead Knights in FSA, but they don't have anything to do with Sages.

In FSA there are no Sages.
Ganon is not associated wtih a group of thieves.
The only seal that is cast is on the Four Sword.
The Sacred Realm is never mentioned.
The Triforce is never mentioned.


...So how exactly does FSA match up perfectly with the aLttP backstory?

Even the less specific GBA manual is nothing like FSA.

[Skull_Kid]

Let's see:

Seal War:
Ganon and a group of thieves discover the opening to the Sacred Realm "by chance"
Ganon kills all the theives
Ganon obtains the Triforce and wishes (his wish is unknown)
Evil power flows out of the Sacred Realm and surrounds Hyrule Castle
Seven Sages are ordered by the King to cast a Seal on the Sacred Realm
Knights protect them, and are wiped out
The Seal is cast


....NONE of that is in FSA.
The only thing remotely close is that there are dead Knights in FSA, but they don't have anything to do with Sages.

In FSA there are no Sages.
Ganon is not associated wtih a group of thieves.
The only seal that is cast is on the Four Sword.
The Sacred Realm is never mentioned.
The Triforce is never mentioned.


...So how exactly does FSA match up perfectly with the aLttP backstory?

Even the less specific GBA manual is nothing like FSA.

The maiden's are descendants of the sages, so, it makes sense if they are the same as in ALttP.

You can assume that, FSA is, at least in part, the BS of ALttP, as most of the events in it kinda lead to the events in ALttP

[Erimgard]

There's a difference between leading into a game, and being part of the games backstory.

MC clearly leads into FS/FSA it explains the origins of Vaati and the Four Sword, but it doesn't match the backstory.

Oh also, if you're using the SNES manual as reference, then the Seal War also has to be the first time Ganondorf ever transformed into Ganon. The SNES manual says the Seal War marked the "birth" of the "King of Evil".

The same is true of FSA-aLttP. FSA shares geography, buildings, the Lost Woods thieves, etc...but it doesn't match the backstory.

And while they may be descendants of the Sages, the maidens are not Sages. The re-release of aLttP still says Sages, so its Sages.

[Skull_Kid]

The SNES manual was retconned, and i don't think that FSA is a direct sequel of MC and FS.
It doesn't have nor does it need to be.

The re-release of alttp also helped to prove that OoT can't be the Imprisoning war, due to the nature of the sages

[Erimgard]

The SNES manual was retconned, and i don't think that FSA is a direct sequel of MC and FS.
It doesn't have nor does it need to be.

The re-release of alttp also helped to prove that OoT can't be the Imprisoning war, due to the nature of the sages

A: Again, the GBA manual is still nothing like FSA
B: Japanese text never says sages are a bloodline-position. The Sages don't have to be the same race.

[Skull_Kid]

B: Japanese text never says sages are a bloodline-position. The Sages don't have to be the same race.



Yes, but if OoT was the IW, and the maidens were descendants of said sages(like it is said through the game), there would have to be a Kokiri maiden, a Goron maiden, etc

[Erimgard]

The only person in all of aLttP who's stated to be a blood descendant of the Sages is Sahasrahla. The word for "descendant" used for the maidens is not strictly blood, it just means one who comes after.

[Skull_Kid]

The only person in all of aLttP who's stated to be a blood descendant of the Sages is Sahasrahla. The word for "descendant" used for the maidens is not strictly blood, it just means one who comes after.

I don't think so, and I want some back proof on that.
Also, note that, OoT lacks lots of things to be considered the Imprisoning War.

There's no army of thieves,he doesn't obtain the full triforce, etc

[Erimgard]

I don't think so, and I want some back proof on that.



I am, indeed, Sahasrahla, the
village elder and a descendent
of the seven wise men


子孫 (しそん, shison) means descendant, posterity, or offspring. Note its relationship to 一族 (ichizoku), which means family or household

The specific word for a blood descendant is "子孫" or "しそん" and that is not the word used for the Maidens. Only Sahasrahla.



aLttP Translations (http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/z3translation/z3_game_quotes.html)

To be fair, the translator doesn't state what the literal translation is for the Maidens, but it isn't the same word used for Sahasrahla.



Also, note that, OoT lacks lots of things to be considered the Imprisoning War.

There's no army of thieves,he doesn't obtain the full triforce, etc
Good thing the GBA manual doesn't require any of that.
It requires that the Sacred Realm be corrupted for the first time before anyone has ever succeeded in entering it and returning.
It requires Seven Sages to Seal it off.

Hmmm....

[sign of table]

^Good thing the GBA manual came out before TWW, amirite? It's not like they didn't imply that the maidens were directly descended from the sages when, you know, they inherited their power from them...

Also, one thing I noticed while playing OoT yesterday. The GBA manual quote: "Therefore, the king ordered the Seven Sages to create a firm seal so that the entrance to the sacred place would never be opened again." The king ordered? The king was implied to be killed. No king ordered for the SR to be sealed.

Tell me, why did they shorten the manual?

Something else to note. The Hylians lived on the current Hyrule according to:
Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land...

They say that in this country, a few remaining treasures of that people are hidden away...

I've heard that the Master Sword is also one of those, a sword specially forged to oppose those with demonic powers.

And even now, it should be sleeping peacefully deep in the forest. ... ... ... Why did the Hylians come back?

You assume that the Hyrule mentioned here: "Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests,
the beauteous land of Hyrule..." is different from LttP Hyrule yet Hyrule from OoT was completely forgotten and people are remembering the story completely differently now, right?

That's completely ridiculous.

[Erimgard]

they inherited their power from them...
I don't recal Nabooru, Saria, etc having their daddies as Sages, do you? Sagehood, perhaps, can pass through bloodline, but by no means is required too.


The king was implied to be killed.
Not really.



No king ordered for the SR to be sealed.
A: Mists of time
B: We don't see what happened to the other 6 Sages. It's quite possible that the King did give the order, but without the Hero there to aid them, the Sages (excluding Rauru) were killed.



Tell me, why did they shorten the manual?
You tell me.



You assume that the Hyrule mentioned here: "Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests,
the beauteous land of Hyrule..." is different from LttP Hyrule yet Hyrule from OoT was completely forgotten and people are remembering the story completely differently now, right?

That's completely ridiculous.
There were stilly Hylians after the flood, were there not?
They didn't instantly become extinct because of some rain.

There's still a few people with Hylian blood in aLttP.

[Caleb, Of Asui]

A lot of timelines agree that FSA is the last game before LttP. There, the seven maidens seal Ganon in the Four Sword, and by LttP, the sword's been moved to the Dark World and Shadow Link has released Ganon. This is the basis of how you find the Four Sword Shrine in the GBA version of LttP, with the four Dark Links and the broken Four Sword. (At the end of FSA, when Zelda is seen going into that room, she might be going into the Four Sword Shrine to leave the mirror there, or perhaps she could be doing something to seal it away.) This seems to be a pretty concrete connection, I think.

Going from this, the Seal/Imprisoning War is likely talking about FSA, for the most part. Some details are lost or confused over time, such as the fact that the maidens of FSA are called sages in LttP. The way the story of the Imprisoning War is told to the people in LttP (and in the intro) describes it as a more condensed event, while Ganon was actually sealed in the Four Sword before history recorded his sealing in the dark world. A big part of the Imprisoning War story is the portals to the dark world (or "golden land") are opened. This seems to connect to FSA as well, better than OoT, because we see portals to the Dark World opening all over the place during FSA. (NOT in OoT.) I know there's some debate over whether the Dark World in FSA is the same as the Dark World in LttP, but it's probable that the Dark World has a stronger connection to Hyrule (FSA) than at other times (OoT and LttP).

So, you can see how the Imprisoning War story in LttP links to FSA. You can tell that the creators intended FSA to have that connection to LttP, not quite as much OoT. Besides, if LttP is in the Child Link Timeline, there is no way for anything in the Adult Link Timeline to affect it, especially not so directly. Maybe LttP can be placed in the Adult Link Timeline, but that interferes heavily with TWW, seeing as the state of both Ganon and the Triforce cannot change so drasticly between OoT and TWW, and Hyrule is flooded after TWW.

[Erimgard]

A lot of timelines agree that FSA is the last game before LttP. There, the seven maidens seal Ganon in the Four Sword, and by LttP, the sword's been moved to the Dark World and Shadow Link has released Ganon. This is the basis of how you find the Four Sword Shrine in the GBA version of LttP, with the four Dark Links and the broken Four Sword. (At the end of FSA, when Zelda is seen going into that room, she might be going into the Four Sword Shrine to leave the mirror there, or perhaps she could be doing something to seal it away.) This seems to be a pretty concrete connection, I think.
Yes but it doesn't really explain how:
A: The Four Sword was moved to the Sacred Realm.
B: How the Sacred Realm was sealed.



while Ganon was actually sealed in the Four Sword before history recorded his sealing in the dark world.
Big problem with that. The Sacred Realm has to be the thing that was sealed, because there is a seal on it in aLttP. Yes details are blurred over time, but aLttP physically shows that there is a Seal on the Sacred Realm. That detail wasn't changed.



A big part of the Imprisoning War story is the portals to the dark world (or "golden land") are opened.
Actually, it doesn't say that. It says one portal to the Sacred Realm was opened, and other people looked for it but never returned.

That matches up perfectly to the pre-OoT days, where the people began trying to find the Sacred Realm, and the Interlopers found it, but were thrust into the Twilight Realm. They were the ones who entered but never returned.



So, you can see how the Imprisoning War story in LttP links to FSA. You can tell that the creators intended FSA to have that connection to LttP, not quite as much OoT.
Except for two things:

A: Two different game designers who made OoT have stated that they were making it into the Imprisoning War
B: FSA's beta version had Seven Sages, the Master Sword, and the Magic Mirror in it, but they were all removed from the final version, distancing it from the Seal War story.

[sign of table]

A: Mists of time That's only in the opening. The SNES manual is told from a MUCH more third person omniscient PoV.
You tell me. It sure as all hell wasn't to strengthen the connections between OoT and LttP as Lex says it was.
There were stilly Hylians after the flood, were there not?
They didn't instantly become extinct because of some rain.

There's still a few people with Hylian blood in aLttP. lol. You're joking right? Did you read the quote? It said that the Hylians PROSPERED. Big difference between what happened in TWW where Hylians were dwindling.

And you didn't respond at all to the point in the opening talking about Hyrule.

It's COMPLETELY ridiculous to assume that the Hyrule mentioned in the opening in the SW is a completely different Hyrule than the current Hyrule and that people are remembering the story in GREATER detail and from a COMPLETELY different view point.

One thing I'd like to say about this. How does the GBA LttP manual change the intent of the SW BEFORE TWW came out? How do the exact same words suddenly mean something completely different now that a new story has come out while non of the recent versions do anything to fix it?

The ONLY proof for OoT being the SW are 1998 quotes. TWW is from '02/'03 (can't remember the release year in Japan...). '02/'03 > 1998 quotes.

Also, quotes FROM THE EXACT SAME TIME say that the Ganon from the SW is the same as the Ganon in LttP.

My personal opinions on this: The entire story is completely screwed. OoT being the SW is fanfic and ignores EVERYTHING about the game, but the SW makes little to no sense between FSA and LttP because the state of Ganon and the Triforce.

Even though Nintendo is apparently trying to connect the games, I'm more inclined to think that Nintendo isn't going to let the screwed SW from the early '90s hold them back at all.

So I really don't know what to think about this, and really the whole timeline. OoT being the SW is complete and utter fanfic in my mind (even worse than the fanfic I use to make up) so there's no way I'll ever really be able to believe that unless the creators come out right now and say so.

For right now I'm mostly going to take an Average Gamer stance on the timeline, but believe that the intent is for games to be on the CT.