OoX and LA [Archive] - Zelda Dungeon Forum Community

Zemen

03-22-2009, 12:12 AM

there are so many different ideas on what the order of these two games are.

Scenarios:

1. some say that it is ALTTP-OoX-LA

2. some say that it is ALTTP-LA-OoX

3. and some people dont even put them on the same timeline.

what do i think? i think they dont go on the same timeline but i do think its possible for the second of the three scenarios i mentioned to be correct. before i say why i think they dont go on the same timeline im gonna say why i dont think that the first scenario i named is possible.

ALTTP/OoX/LA...this means that all four games have the same Link in them. why do some believe that OoX is a prequel to LA? i have heard multiple reasons that i believe to be totally, and utterly terrible reasons. one of these reasons is because of similar monsters that apparently are only in those two games. ok thats evidence ill admit but couldnt that also mean that OoX is after LA?

another piece of evidence argued for OoX/LA is that at the end of OoX you leave on a boat that looks like the one in LA. this is hardly a good argument. with the technology in the Zelda series there is only one way to travel across the sea (if youre not using magic) and that is by boat. what does it matter if the boats look similar? why cant there be more than one of any boat in the world? two words...reused artwork...

wanna hear something funny? those are the best two pieces of evidence ive heard argued for why OoX should be a prequel to LA.

now why dont i think its possible? the BS for LA clearly states as follows:

"Link, who had defeated the evil Ganon and regained peace in Hyrule, had not enjoyed the archived tranquility for long, and eventually becomes restless. Feeling in need of training or enlightenment, he embarks on a journey and sails across oceans in a small sail boat. Eventually Link completes his training in foreign countries and begins to sail back to his home, Hyrule."

now lets break this up and look at it.

"Link, who had defeated the evil Ganon and regained peace in Hyrule,"

this implies that Ganon was fought in Hyrule. in OoX, Ganon is fought in Holodrum/Labrynna. now correct me if im wrong, but if he was defeated in completely different countries than Hyrule then why would the BS say that he brought peace back to Hyrule?

"had not enjoyed the archived tranquility for long, and eventually becomes restless. Feeling in need of training or enlightenment, he embarks on a journey and sails across oceans in a small sail boat."

this implies that Link was leaving Hyrule. if he brought peace to Hyrule then its safe to assume he is in Hyrule which means its safe to assume that this means he is leaving Hyrule, not Holodrum or Labrynne which is the places he would be leaving if OoX was a prequel.

"Eventually Link completes his training in foreign countries and begins to sail back to his home, Hyrule."

the part of the BS that best destroys OoX going before LA. now if OoX comes before LA then this part refers to the events of OoX and Link leaving to return to Hyrule (like we assume he does at the end of OoX). the only problem with this is that it says he completes his "training"

correct me if im wrong but i would consider OoX to be much more than mere training in foreign countries, wouldnt you? he had two pretty big adventures that ultimately lead to him fighting Ganon (kinda) again, but the LA BS is about him finishing training and returning home.

not convinced? well here is another piece of evidence OoX doesnt go before LA. in OoX, Link has the symbol of the triforce on his left hand, but its not there in LA. why would he lost the symbol if LA is supposed to be the same Link? its not like he all the sudden lost his courage or lost whatever he had that made him worthy enough to have the ToC.

my final reason is that i dont even believe the two games go on the same timeline. ALTTP BS talks about the seal war which takes place in the adult portion of OoT therefor ALTTP has to be on the AT. we know that LA is (or was) the sequel to ALTTP which means it has to go on the same timeline as ALTTP. now OoX, IMO, does not go on the AT for the reason that Koume and Kotake are in the game.

if you dont recall, they died in OoT by the hands of adult link, but they were never killed during link's childhood which means they were still alive on the CT (as seen in MM if you believe that is the original Koume and Kotake). if they are dead on the AT and OoX goes on the AT then how are they alive in OoX? dont even try to shoot our resurrection or rebirth because there is absolutely no in game hints or quotes to back up either theory which means we have to assume they are the originals and if they are then they cannot be on the AT.

so lets discuss this.

zeldafreak

03-22-2009, 02:32 AM

Before I take a side, what exactly is OoX anyways?
The only Oo*insert letter here* that I know is OoT.

Zeanith

03-22-2009, 02:56 AM

Before I take a side, what exactly is OoX anyways?
The only Oo*insert letter here* that I know is OoT.
The Oracle of Ages and the Oracle of Seasons.

As for the topic, I think it's debatable. But who's to say really?
Solid evidence, sure. But Nintendo quite possible couldn't even have a timeline.

ChargewithSword

03-22-2009, 09:45 AM

Smertios

03-22-2009, 10:35 AM

there are so many different ideas on what the order of these two games are.

LOL
You just read my mind. I was about to start this thread when i saw this :P

1. some say that it is ALTTP-OoX-LA

This is only possible if it goes like LttP-OoX/LA, and yet that doesn't have much supporting it...

2. some say that it is ALTTP-LA-OoX

This is what I support, LttP/LA-OOX more specifically...

3. and some people dont even put them on the same timeline.

Works well, but it is an easy solution. IMO it ignores the many similarities between OoX and LttP; between OoX and LA; and between OoX and LoZ/AoL...

one of these reasons is because of similar monsters that apparently are only in those two games. ok thats evidence ill admit but couldnt that also mean that OoX is after LA?

Exactly what I believe. I do think the similarities between OoX and LA are too many to simply ignore them, but they don't imply any order of the games...

"Link, who had defeated the evil Ganon and regained peace in Hyrule, had not enjoyed the archived tranquility for long, and eventually becomes restless. Feeling in need of training or enlightenment, he embarks on a journey and sails across oceans in a small sail boat. Eventually Link completes his training in foreign countries and begins to sail back to his home, Hyrule."

The boat from OoX is not small. The one from LA is...

not convinced? well here is another piece of evidence OoX doesnt go before LA. in OoX, Link has the symbol of the triforce on his left hand, but its not there in LA. why would he lost the symbol if LA is supposed to be the same Link? its not like he all the sudden lost his courage or lost whatever he had that made him worthy enough to have the ToC.

This is conclusive, imho. Anyone need fanonic assumptions to deal with this problem...

now OoX, IMO, does not go on the AT for the reason that Koume and Kotake are in the game.

Is there anything else for OoX to come in the YT? Because, when OoX was released, there was no TP yet, meaning Ganon (the demon) had never appeared in the YT yet. And, a few years later, FSA was released and told a new BS for Ganon, in which he used the trident to become the demon. Considering he has the trident in Oox and LttP, I think that is enough to prove that OoX is actually in the AT.

As for Twinrova, the devs reuse characters from time to time. I could list dozens here, but I know your stance on this. You say that these other reused characters were not important to the storyline, while Twinrova was. But this is not true. Twinrova existed only in the second liked game (in the rest of the games she was not even mentioned). It was a bonus.

I'm not saying it is not a canon ending. I'm just saying that Twinrova wasn't put there to imply timeline connections, the same way Dampè wasn't put in TMC to relate it to OoT (it is a different Dampè, even if you put TMC before OoT).

And, to be honest, Dampè is way more important to the TMC storyline than Twinrova to the OoA or the OoS ones. I mean, you can beat both OoA and OoS without even seeing twinrova, but you can't beat TMC without talking to Dampè...

Solid evidence, sure. But Nintendo quite possible couldn't even have a timeline.

Shigeru Miyamoto, Eiji Aonuma and Dan Owsen/Bill Trinnen (one of these two) disagree with you here. They all said there is an actual timeline...

This isn't my opinion, it's been done before in the Zelda series take Four Sword Adventure's BS for example.

Long ago in the inner reaches of Hyrule, an evil wind sorcerer known as Vaati began kidnapping beautiful young maidens, one after another. Nobody could stop Vaati, and the people of Hyrule despaired.

I have no recollection of that happening in Minish Cap.

TMC was never meant to be the FS BS. There was a 4th FSS game planned to be a sequel to TMC (as proven by the "here ends Link's first adventure" line in the end of TMC), which would be that story...

Zemen

03-22-2009, 11:32 AM

Zemen, OOX was made after LA of course the events that take place are going to be different. Game developers don't always follow BS's, in fact the BS is usually the last thing they follow. Look at LOZ how it states that Ganon can only be defeated by a silver arrow, yet now there is a sword that can do that job already.
Things change and developers get facts mixed up at the same time. Don't forget that another company made this. What if Capcom never saw the BS.

This isn't my opinion, it's been done before in the Zelda series take Four Sword Adventure's BS for example.

Long ago in the inner reaches of Hyrule, an evil wind sorcerer known as Vaati began kidnapping beautiful young maidens, one after another. Nobody could stop Vaati, and the people of Hyrule despaired.

I have no recollection of that happening in Minish Cap.

it doenst matter that Capcom made the games. it still Miyamoto/Aonuma are still the ones who saw over the project. the only difference between which company made the game is who is signing the checks to make it.

as for the BS for FS not connection to MC, that is not entirely wrong. the BS for LA literally doesnt connect to OoX in any way. at least the BS for FSA talks about Vaati who was the main villain in MC. thats at least one more connection to MC than LA has for OoX. also, like Smertios said, there was a 4th FS game that was going to be made and it was going to be a sequel to MC but they never made it.

it sounds like youre saying that OoX is made after LA which means the BS for LA would not be based on OoX. thats true, but i will also say that if they are making a game to be a prequel, they would at least try to connect it to the BS because the BS is one of the main components of the Zelda series. name one game that doesnt connect to its prequel with a BS or its sequel's BS except for the original LoZ and AoL. those two games were made with absolutely no idea of the series lasting this long. if OoX is supposed to be a prequel then how come there are absolutely no connections to make it so?

this next part is for Smertios:

i think i just decided that OoX does go on the AT. i understand your point on the Koume and Kotake thing and i think for some reason i always thought they were in both games regardless of the link. its still always going to be in the back of my mind but in the long run, with its connections to LA and ALTTP it seems as if it goes on the AT.

ChargewithSword

03-22-2009, 12:01 PM

it doenst matter that Capcom made the games. it still Miyamoto/Aonuma are still the ones who saw over the project. the only difference between which company made the game is who is signing the checks to make it.

as for the BS for FS not connection to MC, that is not entirely wrong. the BS for LA literally doesnt connect to OoX in any way. at least the BS for FSA talks about Vaati who was the main villain in MC. thats at least one more connection to MC than LA has for OoX. also, like Smertios said, there was a 4th FS game that was going to be made and it was going to be a sequel to MC but they never made it.

it sounds like youre saying that OoX is made after LA which means the BS for LA would not be based on OoX. thats true, but i will also say that if they are making a game to be a prequel, they would at least try to connect it to the BS because the BS is one of the main components of the Zelda series. name one game that doesnt connect to its prequel with a BS or its sequel's BS except for the original LoZ and AoL. those two games were made with absolutely no idea of the series lasting this long. if OoX is supposed to be a prequel then how come there are absolutely no connections to make it so?

this next part is for Smertios:

i think i just decided that OoX does go on the AT. i understand your point on the Koume and Kotake thing and i think for some reason i always thought they were in both games regardless of the link. its still always going to be in the back of my mind but in the long run, with its connections to LA and ALTTP it seems as if it goes on the AT.

I'm willing to admit that the Alttp/LA-OOX story is more plausible.

Still I am interested in the 4th FS game for I need proof to know if it is real.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 02:39 PM

one of these reasons is because of similar monsters that apparently are only in those two games. ok thats evidence ill admit but couldnt that also mean that OoX is after LA? LA is a dream and it takes things from Link's life. Therefore it is evidence for OoX/LA.

Let's look at the LttP/LA evidence... huh it looks like the only real evidence is the shadow of Agahnim.

@the rest of your post.

Oh and thank you for actually using our translations.
this implies that Ganon was fought in Hyrule. in OoX, Ganon is fought in Holodrum/Labrynna. now correct me if im wrong, but if he was defeated in completely different countries than Hyrule then why would the BS say that he brought peace back to Hyrule? Have you played OoX?
Link... The three (Triforce) on your left hand symbolize power, wisdom
and courage-- these are the mark of the hero who is fated to appear
when peace crumbles in Hyrule. With the Essences of Nature and Time and
the courage you possess, you have fought back the powers of evil! The
guidance of the Triforce has made you into this legendary hero! Thank
you, Link. Hmm if he comes when peace in Hyrule crumbles... And then destroys what made the peace crumble... wouldn't that restore peace to Hyrule?
correct me if im wrong but i would consider OoX to be much more than mere training in foreign countries, wouldnt you? he had two pretty big adventures that ultimately lead to him fighting Ganon (kinda) again, but the LA BS is about him finishing training and returning home. Whoa, whoa, whoa, I would like some proof that LA has to happen immediatly after OoX. I've always had it a few years after. When you look at the artwork LA Link is obviously a little older so time has passed.
my final reason is that i dont even believe the two games go on the same timeline. ALTTP BS talks about the seal war which takes place in the adult portion of OoT therefor ALTTP has to be on the AT. we know that LA is (or was) the sequel to ALTTP which means it has to go on the same timeline as ALTTP. now OoX, IMO, does not go on the AT for the reason that Koume and Kotake are in the game. Not quite. If Koume and Kotake are enough evidence for a placement wouldn't the loss of the MS be enough to place LttP on the CT?

Oh and LA and LttP don't have to be in the same timeline that was bad logic.

Btw, I think that the SNES LttP manual is the more canon version. So OoT can't be the SW in my mind.

So what are the reasons for LttP/LA?

Oh and you forgot to mention that some people put it OoX/LA with LttP no where near it.
with its connections to LA and ALTTP it seems as if it goes on the AT. It only connects to LA, though, and those connections only matter if OoX is a direct prequel.

Smertios

03-22-2009, 02:57 PM

Btw, I think that the SNES LttP manual is the more canon version. So OoT can't be the SW in my mind.

Exactly on the contrary. The SNES LttP manual was released before OoT. And before the devs (I have to go check who said that again) said that ooT was the IW...

sign of table

03-22-2009, 02:59 PM

Smertios

03-22-2009, 03:02 PM

^Yeah, but the FSA beta shows that Nintendo obviously doesn't care as much about OoT being the SW. And the SNES manual has some ridiculously blatant contradictions with OoT. Unless, of course, you're willing to believe that Ganondorf was sealed the night he got the Triforce and he never took over the palace...

OK, please pardon me but I didn't understand what you meant here.

First, what FSA beta?
Second, please list the contradictions between the SNES LttP BS and OoT.
Third, Ganon was sealed at the end of OoT, SEVEN years after he got the ToP.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 03:05 PM

Zemen

03-22-2009, 05:16 PM

^I'll reply in the newly made SW thread so as not to spam up this thread.

@Zemen: So you've changed your timeline? You're putting OoX on the AT but keeping TMC before OoT? Here's my question. In TMC Labrynna and Holodrum exist. So after a flood why would they exist again? I never saw anyone trying to recreate a Labrynna and Holodrum like Tetra and Link probably did with Hyrule.

where is your proof that holodrum and labrynna exist? dont even use the picture of 2 islands as your reason because you have no idea what places those islands are. there is absolutely no mention of holodrum and labrynna because if there was there would be SIGNIFICANTLY less debate on its placement. you can PM me with your evidence for that but dont post it here because its off topic.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 05:42 PM

It isn't off topic at all. It's related to the OoX placement. Nayru's figurine says that she is descended from a line of priestesses from Labrynna. That's in TMC.

So, yeah, Labrynna exists during TMC.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 05:51 PM

the titla of the thread is OoX and LA. i dont recall it being anything about MC. stay on topic. and in response to the statue, i still stand by my placement. after Hyrule was flooded, everyone forgot about it. they didnt even know the name of the place. the legend that is passed down on onset island (the BS) never even calls the flooded kingdom "Hyrule" they only refer to it as a great kingdom. Hyrule was obviously eventually unflooded or new land was found and the name was reused so why cant the same be for Labrynna/Holodrum? if Hyrule is forgotten and then remembered then why cant Holodrum and Labrynna be forgotten then later remembered? and, again, dont post your answer here as it is not at all on topic. the topic is the order of OoX and LA in respects to each other. PM me with your answer to my question if you wish to discuss this further or post something in a thread thats actually about the placement of MC.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 06:18 PM

Oh, so we're not allowed to use information from other games to figure out the placement of a different game? So everything that doesn't take place in OoX and LA can't be used as evidence from trying to place OoX or LA?
if Hyrule is forgotten and then remembered then why cant Holodrum and Labrynna be forgotten then later remembered? How does something lost suddenly get remembered? It doesn't happen. Now if Tetra and Link found a new land they'd be the ones to remember it. So who were the people who remember Labrynna and Holodrum?
PM me with your answer to my question if you wish to discuss this further or post something in a thread thats actually about the placement of MC. Actually this isn't to do with the TMC placement. Since I know how attached you are to TMC first I'm using information from TMC to figure out the placement of OoX.

Oh and you never replied to any of my points disproving your entire opening post about OoX/LA.

So what proof is there for LttP/LA?

Zemen

03-22-2009, 07:00 PM

Oh, so we're not allowed to use information from other games to figure out the placement of a different game? So everything that doesn't take place in OoX and LA can't be used as evidence from trying to place OoX or LA? How does something lost suddenly get remembered?

how does the new Hyrule have all of the same exact traditions, style, customs as the old one if Link and Tetra were only told the name of the place and how it was flooded? youre going to use that one book as a reason.

how do you know there isnt a book like that for labrynna and holodrum that has their history. any reason you use for how Hyrule is remembered (except for the WW adventure) are all the same reasons you could use for how the other places are remembered....books and passed down legends.

It doesn't happen. Now if Tetra and Link found a new land they'd be the ones to remember it. So who were the people who remember Labrynna and Holodrum? Actually this isn't to do with the TMC placement. Since I know how attached you are to TMC first I'm using information from TMC to figure out the placement of OoX.

Oh and you never replied to any of my points disproving your entire opening post about OoX/LA.

So what proof is there for LttP/LA?

you once again seem to not understand that you are going off topic.

the topic of this post is whether LA comes before or after OoX. i dont care if its on the AT or CT. that was just merely me adding to my own thread. the specific topic is what comes first, LA or OoX so you bringing up MC does absolutely nothing for the topic. now, for the last time, stop going off topic. from here on out only have post specific to the topic or i will have a mod ban/warn you. the post i made up there you can reply to in a PM as i have asked you to do 3 times now so just do that so we dont have problems.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 07:17 PM

how does the new Hyrule have all of the same exact traditions, style, customs as the old one if Link and Tetra were only told the name of the place and how it was flooded? youre going to use that one book as a reason. I don't run into this inconsistency because I place games on the CT. But apparently talking about that would be off topic...

you once again seem to not understand that you are going off topic. We clearly have different views on what is on and off topic. In my opinion, we can't debate for, or against, OoX/LA without deciding for sure which timeline OoX goes in. Apparently this is very off topic to you. Since this is your thread I guess I'll have to go with your rules but I highly disagree with it.

So on the exact pinpoint topic of OoX/LA. Will you PLEASE reply to my post disproving your opening post. And also tell me what evidence there is for LttP/LA.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 07:32 PM

not sure how peace could even crumble in Hyrule when that wasnt the land being attacked by any evil.

OoX/LA evidence is a boat and that they have similar enemies.

ALTTP/LA has Link defeating Ganon in Hyrule having him restore peace to the land. in the final fight, Aghanim is one of the shadows we see. LA was created before OoX was created which means that Aghanim and the fact that he had just defeated Ganon in Hyrule is an obvious implication that the game is a sequel to ALTTP.

as said earlier, no Link has had more than 2 games.

OoT/MM
WW/PH
LoZ/AoL
FS/FSA

now, like i said before, if OoX is a prequel then it would be ALTTP/OoX/LA

keep in mind OoX is 2 games so its 2 different adventures. thats 4 adventures for one Link even if you think LA is a couple years after OoX.

im pretty sure you also didnt adress how Link doesnt have the triforce symbol on his left hand like he does in OoX.

if they are the same Link then why isnt it there? why did they give it to him in OoX but not in LA. i believe that OoX is after LA and its a new Link. it makes no sense that after OoX Link would lose the ToC. if he was worthy enough to have it in OoX then why wouldnt he have it years later. im pretty sure that once hes the bearer hes the bearer til hes dead or til its taken from him.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 07:55 PM

not sure how peace could even crumble in Hyrule when that wasnt the land being attacked by any evil. Well the text says so. I can't imagine when the world is being taken over that Hyrule is doing well.
OoX/LA evidence is a boat and that they have similar enemies. Try 14 exclusive enemies.
ALTTP/LA has Link defeating Ganon in Hyrule having him restore peace to the land OoX Link does that.
in the final fight, Aghanim is one of the shadows we see. And? I thought enemies didn't matter to you.
Look at the miniboss of the fourth dungeon in OoS, Dancing Dragon Dungeon. That miniboss could very well be Agahnim.

There are 14 exclusive enemies for OoX/LA. Enemies that appear in NO OTHER GAMES. LttP has 3-5 depending on what you count.
which means that Aghanim and the fact that he had just defeated Ganon in Hyrule is an obvious implication that the game is a sequel to ALTTP. Well, see, both of those can apply to OoX plus more exclusive enemies and the boat which is, in my mind, one of the biggest pieces of intent in the entire series.
now, like i said before, if OoX is a prequel then it would be ALTTP/OoX/LA What? What says that it has to go LttP/OoX/LA for OoX to be a prequel to LA? For the third time now. I don't believe in LttP/OoX/LA. I believe in OoX/LA with LttP a completely different Link.
keep in mind OoX is 2 games so its 2 different adventures. thats 4 adventures for one Link even if you think LA is a couple years after OoX. 1 + 2 = 4... wat?
if they are the same Link then why isnt it there? Have you seen the end of OoX? The Triforce is seen flying away. If the Triforce is gone why would he have the mark?
it makes no sense that after OoX Link would lose the ToC. Whoa there is no-where in OoX that says that OoX Link had the ToC.
if he was worthy enough to have it in OoX then why wouldnt he have it years later. But he doesn't have the ToC in OoX.
im pretty sure that once hes the bearer hes the bearer til hes dead or til its taken from him. Play MM. There's no mark there. OH MY GODZ MM CAN'T BE A SEQUEL TO OOT!!!!!11!!1!

Zemen

03-22-2009, 08:39 PM

ChargewithSword

03-22-2009, 08:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP7zULA63Ek

Look at Young Link's hand at the end of the movie. This is the answer to number 11.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 08:58 PM

well i dont see any symbol on his left hand. if its there than the coloring was too bright to see it, but i definitely did not see any triforce symbol.

ChargewithSword

03-22-2009, 09:01 PM

well i dont see any symbol on his left hand. if its there than the coloring was too bright to see it, but i definitely did not see any triforce symbol.

I did, it's on his left hand, darken your computer screen a bit more and you'll see that it is there.

He only lost the symbol when he went to Termina, however he had it when he became a child.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 09:03 PM

still couldnt see it. go to 8:32 and its pretty clear to me it isnt there. i dont know how youre seeing it. they even do a close up on his hand when hes looking at them and it doesnt show anything.

ChargewithSword

03-22-2009, 09:08 PM

still couldnt see it. go to 8:32 and its pretty clear to me it isnt there. i dont know how youre seeing it. they even do a close up on his hand when hes looking at them and it doesnt show anything.

Um Zemen, try 9:48... maybe you'll get some results if you look at that screen.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 09:11 PM

ok now i see it :P it definintely wasnt there at the time i said though. weird.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 09:22 PM

1. OoX never says that the world is under attack. as far as we know, only Holodrum and Labrynna are under attack.

2. that could also be evidence that OoX goes AFTER LA like i think it does.

3. so does ALTTP Link.

4. enemies are different than bosses. why have a boss appear as a shadow in a game when they plan on making a different prequel years later?

5. once again, the EXCLUSIVE enemies could be used as evidence for why it goes after LA as well as why it could go before. so what if the boats look the same? are they supposed to create a completely different boat design for the whole 2 seconds the boat appears in both games?

6. LA was meant to be a sequel to ALTTP regardless of whether it goes before or after OoX. with that in mind, its obvious its supposed to be the same Link which means that in all 4 games it would be the same Link and this is all in my own opinion as i have stated.

7. ALTTP + OoS + OoA + LA = 4

8. ok?

9. in the beginning of at least one of the games (not sure if its in both but im pretty sure it is) when you first talk to whoever gets kidnapped one of the first things she says is "oh you have a (triforce symbol) on your left hand".....theres your proof that he does have the ToC in OoX.

10. yes, he does.

11. i dont recall kid Link having the symbol on the back of his hand in OoT (doesnt mean its not there i just dont remember it...picture please?) which means that if its not there when hes a kid then it makes sense that its not there in MM. 1. No, but Zelda says that peace in Hyrule has crumbled...

2. How is that evidence for after? LA is a DREAM. There are things from the DREAM that are from Link's life. So how in hell is that evidence for OoX to be after LA if LA Link has yet to see the things that happen in OoX?

3. Why did you include that as if it were only evidence for LttP/LA? It's bias and annoying.

4. You want me to count how many bosses are shared between OoX and LA?
Angler Fish, Armos Knight (the OoX version isn't actually a boss. But the LA version is), Blaino, Facade, Giant Ghini, Ghoma, Smasher, Vire (boss Vire. Not Vire from LoZ). Hmmm I count 7/8 bosses. Let's count LttP/LA boss, shall we?
Agahnim, Armos Knight, Giant Lanmola.
I count 3. Hmmm I think OoX/LA has more.

5. Explain how LA Link dreams about things that he has yet to see?
The boat is evidence because OoX ends with Link leaving in a boat. How does LA begin? IN A BOAT. It's intent and physical evidence.

6. Originally, yes. But nothing at all means that it still has to be. If-so I would love some proof.

7. OoS + OoA + LA = 3.

9. AoL Link has a Triforce symbol on his hand without the Triforce. Just because you have a birth mark (yes the Japanese version actually calls it a birth mark) doesn't mean you have the Triforce. Oh and the text dumps say (Triforce mark) the actual game shows a picture of a triangle.

10. No he doesn't.

11. At the very very end of OoT after he is sent back in time when Link goes to see Zelda you can clearly see the mark on his left hand.

Go to the very, very end where he sees Zelda. It's there. I could get a picture of it if you want.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 09:28 PM

dont really care about the rest of the stuff you said as we would just go back and forth forever if i responded to them.

as for the monsters. you dont think its likely they reused monsters? im pretty sure OoX was the next handheld game to be made after LA which would mean that art and characters were likely reused (that includes monsters). seeing as how LA was meant to be a sequel, why were the monsters in the dream if they werent in ALTTP? dont even answer this question using OoX. answer that question as if OoX hasnt been made yet.

my answer would be that they were just adding new things to the game.

also, there is nothing in the game to say that everything in the dream is based off of Links past. at the end when you fight the shadow, yes that is based off of links past but when you talk to the owl he says that Links sudden appearance explains why the monsters have become hostile. this implies that before Link even entered the dream there were monsters there which means those monsters are based off of the wind fishs past. and please dont question me on that quote. i literally was playing the game all day today.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 09:37 PM

Zemen

03-22-2009, 09:41 PM

Or I'm just winning :P

Maybe because LttP/LA wasn't set in stone? The Miyamoto interview in 1998 he said that LA could go anywhere.

Proof that all of the monsters inside the dream were originally good? Why would the Wind Fish be dreaming of Blaino, Facade or any of the others?

you just said in a different thread that creator quotes are sometimes wrong.

he never said they were good. he just said they became hostile. that could mean a number of things. maybe at some point they all stayed in their own spots and only attacked those who came by but now that they decided to rampage. im just telling you what the quote said and the quote implies that they were there before link and as i said, if that was the case then those are monsters from the wind fish's past, not links. they cant be links past experiences if link wasnt even there yet.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 09:50 PM

you just said in a different thread that creator quotes are sometimes wrong. I misworded it. I said that some people think that in-game evidence < creator quote. And the creator quote that was being used was mistranslated.
he never said they were good. he just said they became hostile. that could mean a number of things. maybe at some point they all stayed in their own spots and only attacked those who came by but now that they decided to rampage. im just telling you what the quote said and the quote implies that they were there before link and as i said, if that was the case then those are monsters from the wind fish's past, not links. they cant be links past experiences if link wasnt even there yet. And nothing says that every single monster was there before. Also, wouldn't the bosses have been caused by the nightmare? I mean Lanmola appears as both a boss and a nightmare IIRC. So if the end nightmare boss is canon then wouldn't the other bosses in the game be canon because they were most likely caused by the same thing? And I have more bosses than you.

Oh and the only non-dream piece of evidence is the boat.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 09:56 PM

if you havent figured out by now, i dont care about the boat. im gonna argue reused design all day and all night. you know of all people that im open to certain ideas but in this case i am not. in the real world, in ancient times, armies would have hundreds of boats that all look the same. why does the fact there are two boats that look the same in the zelda world intrigue you so much? does every game that has a raft that looks the same go back to back? what about games that use the same bow design or the same boomerang design? are they the same weapon in every game?

all of the dungeons were locked when you get to the island. you wash up on the beach and right away if you go to the first dungeon its locked. this im sure we can agree on.

with that in mind, that means that the dungeons were already inhabited by monsters and its bosses before Link even got there which means that the bosses were put in place before Link was there to have memories used against him. but if the final boss can tap into his past then it makes sense why it can turn into his past enemies. i never said the bosses werent canon but they were all there before Link even got to the island so how could they be based on link when he wasnt there yet?

sign of table

03-22-2009, 10:03 PM

if you havent figured out by now, i dont care about the boat. im gonna argue reused design all day and all night. you know of all people that im open to certain ideas but in this case i am not. in the real world, in ancient times, armies would have hundreds of boats that all look the same. why does the fact there are two boats that look the same in the zelda world intrigue you so much? does every game that has a raft that looks the same go back to back? what about games that use the same bow design or the same boomerang design? are they the same weapon in every game? It's not the fact that there are two boats. It's the fact that OoX ends almost the exact same way that LA begins. In a boat. That's intent.
with that in mind, that means that the dungeons were already inhabited by monsters and its bosses before Link even got there which means that the bosses were put in place before Link was there to have memories used against him. but if the final boss can tap into his past then it makes sense why it can turn into his past enemies. i never said the bosses werent canon but they were all there before Link even got to the island so how could they be based on link when he wasnt there yet? And the Wind Fish was being tortured by the nightmares before Link got on the island too. So the nightmares can't be based on Link's life either.
How could the Wind Fish be dreaming of things that haven't happened yet?

Zemen

03-22-2009, 10:08 PM

It's not the fact that there are two boats. It's the fact that OoX ends almost the exact same way that LA begins.

except the BS for LA implies that after relaxing in Hyrule he set sail to train. doesnt mention him setting sail from any foreign countries.

And the Wind Fish was being tortured by the nightmares before Link got on the island too. So the nightmares can't be based on Link's life either.
How could the Wind Fish be dreaming of things that haven't happened yet?

so youre basically saying right now that the things in the dream arent based off of Links past. this would mean that the exclusive enemies dont matter.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 10:15 PM

except the BS for LA implies that after relaxing in Hyrule he set sail to train. doesnt mention him setting sail from any foreign countries. It says that you hadn't achieved tranquility for long and set sail to train. Look at the ending cutscene of OoX. He doesn't leave immediatly.
so youre basically saying right now that the things in the dream arent based off of Links past. this would mean that the exclusive enemies dont matter. No, I'm using the same logic that you're using showing that you'd be a hypocrite to think that Agahnim matters but the rest of the enemies don't.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 10:22 PM

It says that you hadn't achieved tranquility for long and set sail to train.

the BS still implies that Link left Hyrule and since the game was made before OoX then there is a 99.99% chance that its meant to mean he left Hyrule for training.

No, I'm using the same logic that you're using showing that you'd be a hypocrite to think that Agahnim matters but the rest of the enemies don't.

its the nightmare shadow that is using links past, not the dream itself. this means that the nightmare shadow can turn into links past enemies but its pretty clear that the other enemies were there before Link was meaning they arent based on links past.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 10:25 PM

the BS still implies that Link left Hyrule and since the game was made before OoX then there is a 99.99% chance that its meant to mean he left Hyrule for training. It says that you restored peace to Hyrule, hadn't achieved tranquility for long and left for training. What part of that is a contradiction with OoX/LA? Because all of it applies.
its the nightmare shadow that is using links past, not the dream itself. this means that the nightmare shadow can turn into links past enemies but its pretty clear that the other enemies were there before Link was meaning they arent based on links past. It's pretty clear that the nightmare shadow was there before Link came, too.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 10:33 PM

It says that you restored peace to Hyrule, hadn't achieved tranquility for long and left for training.

no, it says that he had not enjoyed the tranquility for long. that doesnt mean the tranquility didnt last long. it just means that he didnt get to enjoy it for very long. doesnt mean the tranquility isnt still there. it also says that he left because he became restless. it doesnt imply that some new evil arose and he had to check it out. he just wanted to get away.

it's pretty clear that the nightmare shadow was there before Link came, too.

but the shadow is the mastermind. maybe it can sense links past in his mind (since its a dream) and change based on that sensing of his past. the shadow can see his past in his thoughts but the other bosses and monsters are just his underlings which means they wouldnt have this ability. the shadow nightmare changes ITS OWN physical appearance when it chooses too but it obviously cant change the physical appearance of the dream itself.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 10:44 PM

no, it says that he had not enjoyed the tranquility for long. that doesnt mean the tranquility didnt last long. it just means that he didnt get to enjoy it for very long. doesnt mean the tranquility isnt still there. it also says that he left because he became restless. it doesnt imply that some new evil arose and he had to check it out. he just wanted to get away. If you look at the context of what I said that's kinda what I meant. But thanks for correcting me.
the shadow can see his past in his thoughts but the other bosses and monsters are just his underlings which means they wouldnt have this ability. Can I have some proof of that, please?

Zemen

03-22-2009, 11:25 PM

If you look at the context of what I said that's kinda what I meant. But thanks for correcting me. Can I have some proof of that, please?

ill show you proof of that when you show me proof that the monsters are supposed to be based on Links past.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 11:34 PM

MrMosley

03-22-2009, 11:46 PM

I think its pretty obvious for most people who have really played and read into the old school games that LA is a sequel to ALttP. The only reasoning I have heard that people believe otherwise is the boat at the end and the similar creatures. The boat at the end of OoX does look an awful lot like the one in LA, and the creatures are exactly the same, but people have to remember that OoX were made using recycled graphics from LA.

That means that everything in LA was at Capcoms disposal when making the Oracle titles, even the scenes. It would be very simple to take the sea/boat design at the beginning of LA, add some color to it, and throw it at the end of OoX, rather than having to re-create an entire scene. They already done enough of that throughout the game itself.

So, ALttP-->LA...Then OoX comes sometime later.

Zemen

03-22-2009, 11:53 PM

Well considering the nightmare is based on Link's past and the bosses are clearly linked to the nightmare I'd say that's proof that they were part of Link's past. But I still think that the boat is more intent than Agahnim, anyway.

Also, why would the Wind Fish be dreaming of Blaino when he hasn't even existed yet?

thats you assuming that the entire dream is based on Links past when the whole dream is supposed to be the wind fishs dream.

everything you and i have argued is assumptions which means that there is no conclusive answer. you have a boat and enemies. i have the fact that it was originally supposed to be a sequel and that it has a past boss in it. like dark link said, its all most likely just reused graphics.

sign of table

03-22-2009, 11:59 PM

Yes, but Agahnim is clearly a cameo as well. Oh and there is possibly an Agahnim in OoX.

I just don't see how you can deny the obvious intent in the ending of OoX.

Zemen

03-23-2009, 12:32 AM

Yes, but Agahnim is clearly a cameo as well. Oh and there is possibly an Agahnim in OoX.

I just don't see how you can deny the obvious intent in the ending of OoX.

lol what intent? he has to leave holodrum/labrynna somehow and last time i checked the legend of zelda series doesnt have an airport. how do you expect him to get back to Hyrule other than by way of boat? the intent that i see is that he has finished his adventure and needs to get back to Hyrule. there is a body of water between holodrum/labrynna so the obvious way to get back to Hyrule is by boat. the only reason its so debated is because of the style of the boat. if they showed him going back on a tiny raft this argument would not exist.

sign of table

03-23-2009, 01:24 AM

lol what intent? he has to leave holodrum/labrynna somehow and last time i checked the legend of zelda series doesnt have an airport. how do you expect him to get back to Hyrule other than by way of boat? the intent that i see is that he has finished his adventure and needs to get back to Hyrule. there is a body of water between holodrum/labrynna so the obvious way to get back to Hyrule is by boat. the only reason its so debated is because of the style of the boat. if they showed him going back on a tiny raft this argument would not exist. What reason is there to show him leave Labrynna/Holodrum? The ending with the Triforce flying away was a fine ending. They didn't have to show him go back to Hyrule... or wherever he was going. They didn't have to show him leave in a boat that sets up LA PERFECTLY. You think that Ezlo giving Link a hat is intent but you don't think that one game perfectly setting up another game has any intent what-so-ever?

Actually I'd say that Link was in Hyrule when he left by boat. It shows Zelda in her castle looking at the sea. Then it shows the Triforce fly away. Then it shows Link on a boat in the sea. Wouldn't that imply the same sea?
if they showed him going back on a tiny raft this argument would not exist. Of course not. So why did they pick a boat? They could have shown him leave a million other ways but they chose the way that obviously makes you think of the beginning of LA.

Skull_Kid

03-23-2009, 08:29 AM

What reason is there to show him leave Labrynna/Holodrum? The ending with the Triforce flying away was a fine ending. They didn't have to show him go back to Hyrule... or wherever he was going. They didn't have to show him leave in a boat that sets up LA PERFECTLY. You think that Ezlo giving Link a hat is intent but you don't think that one game perfectly setting up another game has any intent what-so-ever?

Actually I'd say that Link was in Hyrule when he left by boat. It shows Zelda in her castle looking at the sea. Then it shows the Triforce fly away. Then it shows Link on a boat in the sea. Wouldn't that imply the same sea? Of course not. So why did they pick a boat? They could have shown him leave a million other ways but they chose the way that obviously makes you think of the beginning of LA.

We all know any Incarnation of Link is destined to be an adventurer, he left Labrynna and Holodrum to search for newadventures.
Showing him leaving on a boat is probably to demonstrate that both Labrynna and Holodrum are too far from Hyrule to go there by horse.
Also, at the OoX endings, he departs on a raft, yet, on LA's introduction he is on a boat, I mean, a vessel of some sort, not a raft

Zemen

03-23-2009, 09:21 AM

ive never actually seen the ending of OoX where it shows the boat/raft so if anyone could post a picture of it that would be awesome. the boat on LA looks more like a ship than a boat. it almost looks like a ship that would need to be manned by a crew.

sign of table

03-23-2009, 02:54 PM

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk211/bitterlime/boats.jpg They aren't identical because the sail isn't up in LA. I think that means it wasn't cut and pasted. They look similar enough to be the same.

Looks like evidence and intent to me.

Zemen

03-23-2009, 03:52 PM

lol seriously? those pictures arent in any great detail. it looks like they made a general boat shape and colored it brown. its an easy enough design and since neither pictures goes into any specific details of the boat it doesnt show any intent whatsoever.

and for the record, it does look like they copied and pasted it and just moved the spot of the boat and the weather.

sign of table

03-23-2009, 04:10 PM

Zemen

03-23-2009, 04:13 PM

Once again: it's not the boat itself that shows the intent. It's the fact that one ends exactly where another begins, in a boat.

I'd say that it shows more intent than a tiny enemy that is a complete shadow.

the boat shows no intent. let me ask you a question. when Link leaves holodrum/labrynna to go back to Hyrule how do you think he gets back? yes, i have mentioned this before. there is a body of water between his home and where he is and its obvious that epona isnt going to swim across an ocean to get back to Hyrule. he has to get back somehow and his adventure is over so it makes sense that at the end, when he has saved the world and wants to go home, he takes a boat back. there is absolutely no other way for him to cross the ocean so im not getting where you are finding this secret intent because to me it seems obvious that hes leaving in a boat to cross the ocean.

ChargewithSword

03-23-2009, 04:34 PM

the boat shows no intent. let me ask you a question. when Link leaves holodrum/labrynna to go back to Hyrule how do you think he gets back? yes, i have mentioned this before. there is a body of water between his home and where he is and its obvious that epona isnt going to swim across an ocean to get back to Hyrule. he has to get back somehow and his adventure is over so it makes sense that at the end, when he has saved the world and wants to go home, he takes a boat back. there is absolutely no other way for him to cross the ocean so im not getting where you are finding this secret intent because to me it seems obvious that hes leaving in a boat to cross the ocean.

What does it matter? The boat is still a boat, if he was going back to Hyrule in the end of OOX then that means he still went across the sea.
He still could have gotten in a storm. Notice the similarity of your BS which states that he was heading back to Hyrule. If he was heading back in OOX then that means that he still had to go across the sea and run into the wind fish.

Zemen

03-23-2009, 04:37 PM

What does it matter? The boat is still a boat, if he was going back to Hyrule in the end of OOX then that means he still went across the sea.
He still could have gotten in a storm. Notice the similarity of your BS which states that he was heading back to Hyrule. If he was heading back in OOX then that means that he still had to go across the sea and run into the wind fish.

umm exactly where did i say he was leaving to go to Hyrule? my exact statment was that the BS implies he was setting sail FROM Hyrule. why would i be arguing the exact opposite of what i said?

ChargewithSword

03-23-2009, 05:12 PM

umm exactly where did i say he was leaving to go to Hyrule? my exact statment was that the BS implies he was setting sail FROM Hyrule. why would i be arguing the exact opposite of what i said?

"Eventually Link completes his training in foreign countries and begins to sail back to his home, Hyrule."

Zemen

03-23-2009, 05:13 PM

"Eventually Link completes his training in foreign countries and begins to sail back to his home, Hyrule."

so on his way back from training he ran into a storm. OoX isnt training. OoX is him going on two big adventures. in what way would OoX be considered training?

ChargewithSword

03-23-2009, 05:15 PM

so on his way back from training he ran into a storm. OoX isnt training. OoX is him going on two big adventures. in what way would OoX be considered training?

So why make a game based around training? Why follow those exact lines? Besides, you could say he trained against his animal companions (check the ending of OOX.) This ending implies that he stayed around Holodrum/Lbrynna possibly to train.

Zemen

03-23-2009, 05:21 PM

So why make a game based around training? Why follow those exact lines? Besides, you could say he trained against his animal companions (check the ending of OOX.) This ending implies that he stayed around Holodrum/Lbrynna possibly to train.

why would the BS say he was training but not mention that he had just saved two different countries from destruction?

also, the exact lines say he left Hyrule to train and then after training he left to head back to Hyrule.

in OoX he doesnt leave Hyrule to train. he leaves Hyrule beacuse the triforce told him there was trouble in holodrum/labrynna.

ChargewithSword

03-23-2009, 05:23 PM

why would the BS say he was training but not mention that he had just saved two different countries from destruction?

also, the exact lines say he left Hyrule to train and then after training he left to head back to Hyrule.

in OoX he doesnt leave Hyrule to train. he leaves Hyrule beacuse the triforce told him there was trouble in holodrum/labrynna.

The BS won't state this because of release. I thought we talked about that.

Zemen

03-23-2009, 05:24 PM

The BS won't state this because of release. I thought we talked about that.

lol i know and my rebuttal to that is that if they wanted to make OoX be a prequel then they would make it fit the LA BS.

here is an easy fix if they really wanted to make it fit. instead of having Link hear the triforce calling to him, have him end up in Holodrum/Labrynna with the intentions of training but he then stumbles upon an adventure. its that easy. they just have to change the first 2 minutes of dialogue but this doesnt happen.

"who are you? Link you say? well what are you doing here, Link? Training?"

its that easy.

Skull_Kid

03-24-2009, 06:21 AM

But if any of the Oracles would come between ALttP and LA, why didn't they make any in game references in OoX?
Like recycling some character sprites to hint that, all the characters Link was dreaming about in LA were met during his journeys?

Zemen

03-24-2009, 11:18 AM

But if any of the Oracles would come between ALttP and LA, why didn't they make any in game references in OoX?

because, IMO, it doesnt go between ALTTP and LA :)

DvSag

03-24-2009, 02:04 PM

This seems like such an interesting topic. I'm dying to play these games to contribute, but I just have no means of doing so. :(

GBC on the Wii VC cannot come out fast enough.

Skull_Kid

03-25-2009, 06:34 AM

because, IMO, it doesnt go between ALTTP and LA :)

In that I also agree with you, even though in my first timeline studies, I believed they were in between ALttP and LA, that belief soon went away.

This seems like such an interesting topic. I'm dying to play these games to contribute, but I just have no means of doing so. :(

GBC on the Wii VC cannot come out fast enough.

Oh, you can always look up on youtube or Zeldawiki to know the important facts.

On a sidenote: I don't think that such a weak piece of evidence as Link sailing away on a boat would mean a connection.
If they intended ALttP and LA's Link to be the same as the OoX's one, I believe they would have mentioned it in OoX's manuals

Zemen

03-25-2009, 09:29 AM

agreed. i dont think the sail boat is a very good argument. other than the sail boat and the fact that there are some monsters in OoX that are taken from LA doesnt do much for me.

sign of table

03-25-2009, 07:03 PM

The only evidence for LttP-LA is a monster, though. You're being hypocritical by saying enemies don't matter then using an enemy as your only piece of evidence.

Zemen

03-25-2009, 07:26 PM

thats not my only piece of evidence. until OoX came out, it was believed by pretty much every person that LA was supposed to be a sequel for ALTTP. this was believed before a timeline was even confirmed to have existed. my evidence is that it was obviously made to be a sequel to ALTTP and if OoX was never released there would be no argument for that and if there was no boat shown at the end of OoX no one would argue it and i dont believe a boat to be strong enough evidence at all.

sign of table

03-25-2009, 09:56 PM

I agree that if there wasn't a boat showing intent and perfect continuity between OoX and LA no one would believe in OoX/LA. But guess what? THERE IS!

Original intent =/= recent intent. Original intent isn't evidence at all. If it was then we'd all be using linear timelines.

The only evidence there is right here and now for LttP/LA is Agahnim and 3 more exclusive enemies. For OoX/LA there's perfect continuity between games, intent by the ending and boat, 14 exclusive enemies including like 6 bosses.

Zemen

03-25-2009, 09:58 PM

your argument is that the monsters are in the wind fish's dream as apart of Links past but the quote from the owl implies that the monsters were there before Link showed up which means that those monsters dont come from Links past which means that the 14 exclusive enemies doesnt matter which means the only argument you have is a boat and as i have argued before, there is only one way to cross the ocean when you cant fly.

you have to keep in mind that its the wind fish's dream, not link's. the wind fish didnt end up in link's dream, link ended up in the wind fishes dream which means that most of the elements in the dream are from the wind fishs mind. apparently this shadow nightmare can somehow sense links past and shape shift as such but the owl says that since Link showed up the monsters have gone crazy implying that monsters were there before he showed up. how can stuff from links past be in this dream before link is even there?

sign of table

03-25-2009, 10:56 PM

Zemen

03-25-2009, 11:42 PM

All they needed to do was show Link leave on his horse for OoX/LA to be nonexistant. Hey look I can make things up too!

Hey can I have a quote that says that the nightmares were part of Link's life? And can I also have a quote that shows the other bosses aren't related to the nightmares? Thanks in advance. You know what is interesting? The owl says And Zelda says something very very similar to that.

i didnt make anything up... just about everyone believes that Labrynna and Holodrum are on different continents. im pretty sure you even mentioned this in a thread about geography that they were seperate continents. this means there is a body of water between them and Hyrule. exactly how does showing him ride away on Epona explain how he gets back to Hyrule? i dont think Epona can swim across an ocean. oh wait...dont boats float on water and carry people from one place to the other over the ocean?

im also unaware of what that owl quote proves....

in the beginning when you get the sword the owl says something along the lines of "your presence explains the sudden increase in activity of the monsters" or something along those lines. im seriously not understanding what the quote you stated is supposed to prove. im really getting annoyed with this conversation and its obvious its not going anywhere so lets just agree to disagree and drop it.

sign of table

03-26-2009, 04:45 AM

im also unaware of what that owl quote proves.... Where did I say I was trying to prove something with that quote? All I said was it was something interesting. The quote you're referring to says
Hoot! Hoot!
So you are the
lad who owns the
sword... Now I
understand why
the monsters are
starting to act
so violently...
A courageous lad
has come to wake
the Wind Fish...
It is said that
you cannot leave
the island
unless you wake
the Wind Fish...
You should now
go north, to the
Mysterious
Forest. I will
wait for you
there! Hoot! So they are becoming bad because Link is coming to wake up Wind Fish. Sounds just like the nightmares so they very well could be the same.

You accuse me of having no proof then when I do the same you ask to drop the subject? Give me your proof that Link affected the nightmare.

Skull_Kid

03-26-2009, 06:10 AM

The only evidence for LttP-LA is a monster, though. You're being hypocritical by saying enemies don't matter then using an enemy as your only piece of evidence.

Not only one enemy... There is the moldorm, of course, and Dehtl, the physical form of the Nightmare turns into a moldorm(again), Ganon(in a very ALttP-fashion way) and Aghanim...

Even though enemies can't be used to come with a Timeline, I believe that Dehtl pretty much sums things up.
Also, if you remember, it was never mentioned by anyone of Nintendo that OoX were intended to be between ALttP-La(and they stated that LA was a sequel to ALttP)

Zemen

03-26-2009, 12:49 PM

i think you need to chill out SoJ. weve been going back and forth for days and its not getting anywhere. thats why i said i want to drop it because if we continue i will start bashing because thats what i do with back and forth arguments and i dont want to bash you because i respect you (and i dont want to get banned)

and what he said ^

sign of table

03-26-2009, 01:58 PM

Also, if you remember, it was never mentioned by anyone of Nintendo that OoX were intended to be between ALttP-La(and they stated that LA was a sequel to ALttP) I know which developer quote you're referring to but it wasn't by Miyamoto nor Aonuma. And Miyamoto said around the same time that LA could go anywhere after OoT.
Not only one enemy... There is the moldorm, of course, and Dehtl, the physical form of the Nightmare turns into a moldorm(again), Ganon(in a very ALttP-fashion way) and Aghanim... 4-5 total exclusive enemies for LttP/LA. 14 for OoX/LA.
i think you need to chill out SoJ. weve been going back and forth for days and its not getting anywhere. thats why i said i want to drop it because if we continue i will start bashing because thats what i do with back and forth arguments and i dont want to bash you because i respect you (and i dont want to get banned) If you start to get so angry in a debate that you start to bash each other then I think something's wrong lol. I'd never bash someone over a debate because a debate is just that. A friendly debate.

Skull_Kid

03-27-2009, 05:59 AM

I know which developer quote you're referring to but it wasn't by Miyamoto nor Aonuma. And Miyamoto said around the same time that LA could go anywhere after OoT. 4-5 total exclusive enemies for LttP/LA. 14 for OoX/LA. If you start to get so angry in a debate that you start to bash each other then I think something's wrong lol. I'd never bash someone over a debate because a debate is just that. A friendly debate.

But in OoX there is no Aghanim battle, for example... And the Ganon battle is totally different.
Yet, there is one detail in LA that, when I started to make a timeline, led me to think that LA could be after OoX.
In the Animal Village, when Marin goes there to sing(if I am not mistaken), there is one inhabitant that looks like Moosh, only in a smaller version

MrMosley

03-27-2009, 06:07 AM

But in OoX there is no Aghanim battle, for example... And the Ganon battle is totally different.
Yet, there is one detail in LA that, when I started to make a timeline, led me to think that LA could be after OoX.
In the Animal Village, when Marin goes there to sing(if I am not mistaken), there is one inhabitant that looks like Moosh, only in a smaller version

Actually, there is an Agahnim battle. It takes place in the Dancing Dragon Dungeon in Oracle of Seasons.

http://zeldawiki.org/Agahnim

Click that link and scroll on down under "Strategy".

But as for the topic, I've said it enough times that I don't believe OoX comes before LA. I've posted all my reasons before, so I won't do it again cause it would take up half the page here. I really feel its a wasted argument to consider otherwise, but ya know, its still always good to try and figure out "if" it could go in that order. But I'll never think it does. And we probably won't ever find out for sure if it does. That's why we have to go with what we got, and what we got puts LA after ALttP.

Skull_Kid

03-27-2009, 06:27 AM

Actually, there is an Agahnim battle. It takes place in the Dancing Dragon Dungeon in Oracle of Seasons.

http://zeldawiki.org/Agahnim

Click that link and scroll on down under "Strategy".

But as for the topic, I've said it enough times that I don't believe OoX comes before LA. I've posted all my reasons before, so I won't do it again cause it would take up half the page here. I really feel its a wasted argument to consider otherwise, but ya know, its still always good to try and figure out "if" it could go in that order. But I'll never think it does. And we probably won't ever find out for sure if it does. That's why we have to go with what we got, and what we got puts LA after ALttP.

Completely forgot that... But, Aghanim dies on ALttP, how can he be living on OoS?That raises another question. Unless somehow the Twinrova also managed to get him back to life...
Yet, I agree with you and I truly don't believe that the Oracles come between ALttP and LA

Zemen

03-27-2009, 02:16 PM

is it even 100% certain that the mini boss in OoX is aghanim? i feel as though its just a character based on his design but that doesnt mean its him.

sign of table

03-27-2009, 09:40 PM

Yet, I agree with you and I truly don't believe that the Oracles come between ALttP and LA Why is everyone acting as if the only way for LA to be a sequel to OoX is for it to go LttP/OoX/LA? OoX/LA with LttP all alone is just as possible as LttP/LA or LttP/OoX/LA, imo.

I'm pretty sure I already mentioned Agahnim of OoS. I wish people would read my posts... ):

@Zemen: Actually I wouldn't say it's 100% confirmed that he is Agahnim. But look at him then the official art. He looks more like the official art of Agahnim than LttP Agahnim does, imo.
But in OoX there is no Aghanim battle, for example... And the Ganon battle is totally different. Your point? Also, Ganon is Ganon. They are pretty much the exact same except the fighting style. So to me that doesn't matter. Facade, Blaino, Angler Fish, Giant Ghini, King Moblin, Vire (boss form) and Smasher don't appear in any games but OoX and LA. And those are just the bosses. Not including the other generic enemies such as the Pigblins, Spiked Thwomp (although I'm more-or-less willing to count that one as a cameo), Shrouded Stalfos etc etc.

MrMosley

03-28-2009, 12:17 AM

He is more or less a character based off Agahnim. He's not the real Agahnim, obviously, because if he was they would have let us know.

sign of table

03-28-2009, 03:08 AM

Well Agahnim in the Japanese text is described as a bunshin. Which sorta means a soulsplit. Which Ganon did to escape the seal like Celia in PH. So he could have multiple soul splits.

Why is Agahnim so important while my evidence of the same kind, which there is almost 3 times of, isn't important?

Smertios

03-28-2009, 09:18 AM

Zemen

03-28-2009, 01:23 PM

Enemies are not the best argument to prove either LttP/LA or OoX/LA. Both fit, especially for those who have all these 4 games so close in the timeline, like me (I believe in LttP/LA-OoX).

The thing is, LttP fits LA's backstory better than OoX. Link is supposed to be training abroad after defeating Ganon and saving Hyrule (in Hyrule, I should add).

this is exactly what i agree with and what ive been trying to argue this entire thread. the BS fits ALTTP so well and if they intended on having OoX be a prequel to LA they did a terrible job trying to make it fit.

sign of table

03-28-2009, 01:28 PM

The thing is, LttP fits LA's backstory better than OoX. Link is supposed to be training abroad after defeating Ganon and saving Hyrule (in Hyrule, I should add). OoX fits that perfectly, too. Nothing actually says that he was in Hyrule. It says that he returned peace to Hyrule. Guess what? OoX specifically says that Link did that. Then it says that he hadn't enjoyed tranquility for long. In OoX you see that Link stays around, see the animals, clearly doesn't leave immediatly but leaves quickly. LA says that he left afterwards to train. OoX shows him leave in a friggin boat that is damn near identical to the LA boat but not cut and pasted so it can't be a cameo.

How does that NOT describe OoX?
the BS fits ALTTP so well and if they intended on having OoX be a prequel to LA they did a terrible job trying to make it fit. Ok show me the inconsistency. I've proved all the others you've shown wrong. So show me something I haven't proved wrong.
EDIT: Damn can't debate anymore right now. I'll be back later, though.

Antares376

06-22-2009, 05:01 AM

To me, the timeline ALttP -> OoA -> OoS -> LA is very fine.

I glanced at this (quite lengthy, as it has gotten) discussion, and I think that many arguments that have been used are a bit farfetched and over the top.

The by far most important thing that constitutes my view on this is, that the Oracles chapter seems to have (very intentionally) been put in a sort of "bracket" which provides good symbolic continuity to both ALttP on one end, as well as LA on the other.

***

ALttP is originally called "Triforce of the Gods"; during the course of the game, Link battles the real Agahnim, as well as the real Ganon. In the end, he obtains the Triforce...

...which sends him to Labrynna/Holodrum at the very beginning of the Oracles chapter. This fact seems to me to convey a clear allusion to the end of ALttP, and it fits very well indeed, for as long as we do not try to overdo the analysis with accounting for some details of questionable canonicality, and which were merely intended to fill plot gaps that existed before the Oracle games were created.

Having fought the genuine incarnations of Agahnim and Ganon in ALttP, in the following Oracles chapter Link faces an apparently resurrected Agahnim, as well as, ultimately, a resurrected Ganon.

As much as the Triforce scene was the opening bracket providing a transition from ALttP, the boat scene at the end is the closing bracket of the Oracles chapter, providing an obviously intentional transition into LA.

After having "washed up" in the dream world of Koholint and having pursued the resulting quest, Link faces Agahnim and Ganon for the final time in the whole ALttP/OoX/LA story arc - though this time, as a last echo, merely in the form of temporary guises of the Nightmare Dethl.

***

The stuff I lined out above makes good enough sense to me to be comfortable with the idea of the ALttP/OoX/LA story arc, hence I personally do not intend to argue further over it. Take it as the few cents of mine on this topic, and if you still feel you disagree, feel free, as it is not my intent to force my point of view on anyone, but just to present it.

Anyway, it is a great thing to do to play through the games in the abovementioned order (ALttP -> (OoA -> OoS linked game) -> LA). I did it once, and it was an amazing experience <3.

Cheers :)

MrMosley

07-13-2009, 03:01 PM

Take from Page 3 of LA's (American) manual:

"Though you fufilled the Hyrulian prophecy of the Legendary Hero and
destroyed the evil tyrant Ganon, the land of Hyrule enjoyed only a
precarious peace. "Who knows what threats may arise from Ganon's
ashes?" the restless people murmured as they knitted their brows and
shook their heads. Ever vigilant, you decided to journey away from Hyrule
on a quest for enlightenment, in search of wisdom that would make you
better able to withstand the next threat to your homeland. Months of
difficult travel passed. After a long and fruitful voyage, you breathed
deeply the sea spray from the deck of the ship that carried you home to
Hyrule. But your homecoming was not to be. Suddenly a squall struck
your ship, and though you valiantly fought the waves, a lightning bolt
reduced your ship to splinters."

OoX was not a journey of "enlightenment" or a quest to better withstand the threat of Ganon. It was a journey to save the lands of Labrynna and Holodrum.

So? He still defeats Ganon returning peace to Hyrule.

Which is not relevant to LA's manual. Read it again. It clearly implies that he defeated Ganon and LEFT HYRULE in search of enlightenment. The Japanese manual says to train in foreign lands. OoX does not show him going to Labrynna and Holodrum to train or gain enlightenment for anything; Only to save those lands.

Wonder where he went when he left in that boat. I mean it says in LA that you're coming back to Hyrule from training. So LA Link would've had his boat before he started training.

He didn't go to Labrynna/Holodrum on a boat. LA's manual implies the he left Hyrule out of his own will. In OoX, the opening shows that the Triforce chose him to go there. Again, not to have a big adventure to save those lands and stop Ganon from being revived, but for enlightenment (U) and training (J).

What exactly says that he can't go to foreign lands after OoX to train?

What exactly says that he did? If there's no proof of it, then it doesn't exist. Your basically saying that everything in ALttP didn't matter when your putting OoX in its place. That's like saying Young Link from OoT was a Hero in Hyrule because of what he did in Termina. It doesn't work that way. The manual implies that Link went to foreign lands to train after his adventures in Hyrule during ALttP. He did this because the people of Hyrule were afraid of Ganon's return. Not to mention the fact that Link himself was probably scared of his return too. Which is why, I believe, that the Nightmare boss takes the form of Agahnim and Ganon, because those are Link's nightmares. This idea is easy to see so long as you believe that the dream of LA is not just things that the Wind Fish is dreaming about.

Just so you know, there are 14 exclusive enemies shared between OoX/LA compared to around 5 for LttP/LA. Enemies may mean nothing, but it's worth noting.

It's not worth noting at all considering OoX were made from the engine and previously used sprites from LA. And I know you've heard this before, but you keep negating it. They had those sprites to use, so they used them instead of taking even longer to release the games.

sign of table

07-13-2009, 03:10 PM

Take from Page 3 of LA's (American) manual: Use Japanese.
OoX was not a journey of "enlightenment" or a quest to better withstand the threat of Ganon. It was a journey to save the lands of Labrynna and Holodrum. And to save the land of Hyrule according to the prophecy. God are you even reading my posts? He left at the end of OoX for the training said in the JAPANESE VERSION. Stop reading the craptastic American version.
It clearly implies that he defeated Ganon and LEFT HYRULE in search of enlightenment. Japanese implies no such thing, and the end of OoX is implied to be him leaving Hyrule. So he left Hyrule anyway in OoX.
The Japanese manual says to train in foreign lands. OoX does not show him going to Labrynna and Holodrum to train or gain enlightenment for anything; Only to save those lands. READ MY POSTS. I have clearly said multiple times that OoX WAS NOT EVER MEANT TO BE THE TRAINING IF FOREIGN LANDS!!!!!!!!! If OoX goes before LA OoX would be when he DEFEATS GANON then AFTER OOX he leaves on a boat TO TRAIN IN FOREIGN LANDS.
He didn't go to Labrynna/Holodrum on a boat. LA's manual implies the he left Hyrule out of his own will. In OoX, the opening shows that the Triforce chose him to go there. Again, not to have a big adventure to save those lands and stop Ganon from being revived, but for enlightenment (U) and training (J). I'm just gonna cut and paste what I said a moment ago as it applies.

READ MY POSTS. I have clearly said multiple times that OoX WAS NOT EVER MEANT TO BE THE TRAINING IF FOREIGN LANDS!!!!!!!!! If OoX goes before LA OoX would be when he DEFEATS GANON then AFTER OOX he leaves on a boat TO TRAIN IN FOREIGN LANDS.
What exactly says that he did? What exactly says that LttP Link did? Atleast OoX ends setting up the training, which LttP does not.
If there's no proof of it, then it doesn't exist. Him leaving on a boat nearly identical (only really different in the sails. Which means it can't be reusing of sprites) to the one in LA is more proof than LttP has on the matter.
That's like saying Young Link from OoT was a Hero in Hyrule because of what he did in Termina. Except Young Link didn't save Hyrule. OoX Link did.
It's not worth noting at all considering OoX were made from the engine and previously used sprites from LA. And I know you've heard this before, but you keep negating it. They had those sprites to use, so they used them instead of taking even longer to release the games. As I said it could mean nothing. But it IS worth noting because it MAY NOT be reusing of sprites. Saying it IS laziness is being extremely biased.

Since you like to use the "if there's no proof it's impossible" argument I'll use the same. There is no proof in LttP that he left Hyrule, so he didn't. See how ridiculously flawed that argument is? Stop using it.

MrMosley

07-13-2009, 03:28 PM

Use Japanese.

I have used examples from the Japanese manual. But I'm not going to waste time looking at the whole thing becase it is essentially a waste of time when the order is so obvious already.

And to save the land of Hyrule according to the prophecy. God are you even reading my posts? He left at the end of OoX for the training said in the JAPANESE VERSION. Stop reading the craptastic American version.

Where is it that any manual from OoX says that he left for training at the end of that game. I read your post, and I replied to it obviously. No where has it stated that Link left Labrynna or Holodrum and went to train. This quote is pointless. And what are people in America and Europe supposed to do, waste their time as well to go and play/read Japanese translations all day? Sorry, but the result is quite the same either way. The order is obvious and no one should bother having to waste their time reading all these little details.

Japanese implies no such thing, and the end of OoX is implied to be him leaving Hyrule. So he left Hyrule anyway in OoX.

No he didn't. That's about the most far fetched idea I have ever heard out of OoX theories. The end of OoX shows him interacting with people from Labrynna or Holodrum, then leaving. Play the game again. Why would Link randomly be shown hanging out with people from Labrynna and Holodrum at the end of the game, then all of a sudden be leaving Hyrule? It makes absolutely no sense why the developers would throw in something that far fetched and unobvious.

READ MY POSTS. I have clearly said multiple times that OoX WAS NOT EVER MEANT TO BE THE TRAINING IF FOREIGN LANDS!!!!!!!!! If OoX goes before LA OoX would be when he DEFEATS GANON then AFTER OOX he leaves on a boat TO TRAIN IN FOREIGN LANDS.

Well I guess if you have too much pride to think that him defeating Ganon in ALttP was bigger and would probably be more important than defeating a half-way Ganon in OoX, then I could see you believing in that idea. But it makes absolutely no sense when you really think about it.

What exactly says that LttP Link did? Atleast OoX ends setting up the training, which LttP does not.

Nope, it sure doesn't. OoX ends with Link leaving Labrynna or Holodrum. That is pretty clear.

As I said it could mean nothing. But it IS worth noting because it MAY NOT be reusing of sprites. Saying it IS laziness is being extremely biased.

Call it what you want, but it is what it is. If they wanted to recreate the sprites, they could have. Look at the bosses in the game. They recreated most all of the bosses. They recreated most all of the scenery sprites. If they wanted to, they could have given those enemies different looks, but did they? Nope, they just colored em up and slapped em in there. Case-in-point: They reused sprites.

Since you like to use the "if there's no proof it's impossible" argument I'll use the same. There is no proof in LttP that he left Hyrule, so he didn't. See how ridiculously flawed that argument is? Stop using it.

Actually I think I'll keep using it all day until you come up with an intelligent solution. ALttP does not show Link leaving, but LA says that he did. Since that is its direct sequel, there's your proof. Does OoX show Link leaving Hyrule after he defeated Ganon? Nope. Its pretty obvious that at the time of ALttP's creation, they would not have known anything about LA. Even when they re-released ALttP for GBA, they didn't add that on to the ending or anything probably because Link didn't leave right after the game was over. However, when OoX was created, LA and ALttP had already been there a while. I'm sure if they wanted to show Link leaving Hyrule in OoX, they could have. Or at least mentioned it.

Tingle

07-13-2009, 03:49 PM

MrMosley

07-13-2009, 03:55 PM

Just thought Id throw this idea in the mix (darklink you can have as much of a go as you like) as I feel it may help SoJ's argument.

Back when OoT was first released (somebody Miyamoto? or somebody else high up) said that OoT was the first story then ALttP then the originals and that LA could go just about anywhere.

Now to me this doesnt seem like Nintendo had LA as a ALttP sequel at that time and so maybe it doesnt have to be a direct sequel to ALttP.

I've heard this quote before. It would almost make sense too, at least at that time. Because the basic story of LA is Link defeated Ganon, saved Hyrule, but the people of Hyrule were still afraid that Ganon might return. Well, at that point in time, all Zelda titles left off with a defeat of Ganon (LoZ, ALttP, and OoT), so the people could still be afraid of his return at the end of any of those games and technically LA could have went after any of them.

However, we have seen a lot of those options ruled out over the years. Originally, it was pretty clear that LA was meant to be a sequel to ALttP, judging by its box art, various art of characters, and manual storyline. Over the years, this questionable sequel became more and more obvious as a factual sequel. Still, I don't see any Zelda game that rules LA out as a direct sequel to ALttP. It fits perfectly there. The point I'm trying to argue is basically that even OoX, with its similar art style, and even plot, is still not as close to the manual of LA and the connection between it and ALttP to put it between them. OoX had a chance to make it clear if it wanted to be a game after ALttP, but it did not make it clear. It only gave small references to what "could be". LA made it much more clear.

Zemen

07-13-2009, 04:10 PM

No. It says "You, who regained the peace of Hyrule from the demonic hands of the king of evil, Ganon".

You pretty much fed yourself your own poison with this statement. This completely implies that Ganon has literally taken over or terrorized Hyrule, specifically. Not Holodrum and Labrynna.

sign of table

07-13-2009, 04:27 PM

No he didn't. That's about the most far fetched idea I have ever heard out of OoX theories. The end of OoX shows him interacting with people from Labrynna or Holodrum, then leaving. Play the game again. Why would Link randomly be shown hanging out with people from Labrynna and Holodrum at the end of the game, then all of a sudden be leaving Hyrule? It makes absolutely no sense why the developers would throw in something that far fetched and unobvious. Ok tell me, then. Which one does he leave? He is shown leaving the exact same place in both OoA-OoS order and OoS-OoA order. And it shows Zelda looking at the ocean from Hyrule castle, then Link is on a boat on the ocean. It's a weak implication, but it is an implication.
Well I guess if you have too much pride to think that him defeating Ganon in ALttP was bigger and would probably be more important than defeating a half-way Ganon in OoX, then I could see you believing in that idea. But it makes absolutely no sense when you really think about it. All that is required is for the presence of Ganon to disrupt the peace of Hyrule, which it did, and for Link to return peace to Hyrule by defeating Ganon, which he did.
Where is it that any manual from OoX says that he left for training at the end of that game. I read your post, and I replied to it obviously. No where has it stated that Link left Labrynna or Holodrum and went to train. This quote is pointless. That is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. If you're so adamant on using that argument then tell me, where in LttP does it say he left to train?
Nope, it sure doesn't. OoX ends with Link leaving Labrynna or Holodrum. That is pretty clear. Which one? Holodrum or Labrynna? And LA doesn't require him to leave Hyrule, it requires him to return peace to Hyrule and leave to train to prevent future disasters.
Call it what you want, but it is what it is. If they wanted to recreate the sprites, they could have. Look at the bosses in the game. They recreated most all of the bosses. They recreated most all of the scenery sprites. If they wanted to, they could have given those enemies different looks, but did they? Nope, they just colored em up and slapped em in there. Case-in-point: They reused sprites. Yes they reused sprites. But reusing sprites doesn't mean it isn't evidence. Or is the Ocarina of Time in MM not a storyline connection to OoT because they reused it? Well it's connected by other means, but still. It's completely stupid to say something means nothing because they reused it.
Actually I think I'll keep using it all day until you come up with an intelligent solution. An intelligent solution to what?
Does OoX show Link leaving Hyrule after he defeated Ganon? Nope. Does it need to? Nope.
Since that is its direct sequel Prove it still is.
Its pretty obvious that at the time of ALttP's creation, they would not have known anything about LA. There is a GBA remake of LttP that changed things. They could have easily added a boat onto the end of LttP as they added the Palace of the Foursword.
because Link didn't leave right after the game was over. Which is for the most part required for LA.
I'm sure if they wanted to show Link leaving Hyrule in OoX, they could have. 1) IT DOES NOT REQUIRE LINK TO LEAVE HYRULE. NOTHING IN THE LA MANUAL REQUIRES THAT. STOP SAYING IT DOES. 2) They did.

I've been giving evidence for OoX/LA. Give me evidence for LttP/LA that is still valid.
You pretty much fed yourself your own poison with this statement. This completely implies that Ganon has literally taken over or terrorized Hyrule, specifically. Not Holodrum and Labrynna. OoX says that OoX Link is supposed to appear when peace in Hyrule crumbles. OoX Link is in OoX so that means peace in Hyrule has crumbled. Defeating Ganon returns peace. Therefore OoX Link returned peace to Hyrule.

Show me evidence for LttP/LA. Try and find evidence that isn't enemies or geography.

MrMosley

07-13-2009, 05:01 PM

Ok tell me, then. Which one does he leave? He is shown leaving the exact same place in both OoA-OoS order and OoS-OoA order. And it shows Zelda looking at the ocean from Hyrule castle, then Link is on a boat on the ocean. It's a weak implication, but it is an implication.

He leaves whichever the last one you played. Both have oceans and coastlines, and both contain roughly the same characters. Zelda isn't looking out at the ocean either, she is looking into the sky. The only thing from the ending pic that would resemble Hyrule is the castle in the background, but that is not solid proof either as both Labrynna and Holodrum have castle structures in them.

On a side note, Link in that boat is about as good of a piece of evidence to OoX/LA as him riding a horse at the beginning is to support MM/OoX.

http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o372/calebm_89/lozooxend.png

Yes they reused sprites. But reusing sprites doesn't mean it isn't evidence. Or is the Ocarina of Time in MM not a storyline connection to OoT because they reused it? Well it's connected by other means, but still. It's completely stupid to say something means nothing because they reused it.

I doesn't have to mean nothing, sure. As I said, you can believe it means something if you want. But it is a rather weak example to use, compared to bigger examples to support ALttP/LA.

That is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. If you're so adamant on using that argument then tell me, where in LttP does it say he left to train?

I believe I already answered this question. Sounds like your the one who needs to be reading posts.

(in reference to OoX showing Link leaving Hyrule) Does it need to? Nope.

I doesn't, but it should would have helped your theory out quite a bit.

(in regards to LA still being a direct sequel to ALttP)Prove it still is.

Isn't that what I am doing/have done here? Have you not realized that there have been multiple reasons thrown at you in this discussion?

There is a GBA remake of LttP that changed things. They could have easily added a boat onto the end of LttP as they added the Palace of the Foursword.

I already answered that too. And the Palace of the Four Sword is not really a big deal in my opinion. Maybe it means something, maybe it doesn't. But it seems like it was mainly just an extra level to help out the replay value of the game, rather than something they were worried about adding for storyline purposes.

I've been giving evidence for OoX/LA. Give me evidence for LttP/LA that is still valid.

Once again, I have. You should really stop repeating yourself. Your evidence for OoX/LA is pretty weak, and is based on things that aren't as clear as evidence I am using, which is obviousness from the manuals.

OoX says that OoX Link is supposed to appear when peace in Hyrule crumbles. OoX Link is in OoX so that means peace in Hyrule has crumbled. Defeating Ganon returns peace. Therefore OoX Link returned peace to Hyrule.

Does that have to mean that peace in Hyrule has crumbled? I sure would expect for Link to have an adventure there if peace there had been shaken. But he rather goes somewhere else to help out. Sure, in the end it may have stopped Ganon from coming back, and saved princess Zelda. But it was Zelda's fault for even going there in the first place. Peace hadn't even began to crumble in Hyrule until Zelda was taken captive and Twinrova's plan began unraveling. None of this happened before Link got there, and that quote comes from when Link first arrives. It doesn't have to mean that peace is crumbling in Hyrule, only that its what it has meant before.

Show me evidence for LttP/LA. Try and find evidence that isn't enemies or geography

I haven't used enemies or geography, you have. Your the one who keeps saying the enemies are important to OoX/LA and that the end scene (geography) implies that Link is leaving Hyrule. So now I all of a sudden can't use these points? Bummer. Ah well, its not like I have to. The evidence is obvious. Link defeats Ganon, restores peace to Hyrule, but its people are still afraid. He leaves to train in case Ganon returns again. This is obvious. In OoX, the Triforce sends Link to Labrynna/Holodrum on a mission, not to train. The manual of LA is an obvious connection to ALttP, the manual for OoX is not. That is my evidence.

Zemen

07-13-2009, 05:09 PM

1) IT DOES NOT REQUIRE LINK TO LEAVE HYRULE. NOTHING IN THE LA MANUAL REQUIRES THAT. STOP SAYING IT DOES.

False, the BS of LA specifically says that Link left Hyrule after defeating Ganon.

You asked the question "does OoX need to show Link leaving Hyrule?" and the answer is YES!

The entire game takes place in Holodrum/Labrynna with the exception of the beginning of the game. If it does not show Link specifically leaving Hyrule then it is quite obvious that it was meant to be taken that he was leaving Holodrum/Labrynna. Both OoA and OoS take place in 2 places completely different from Hyrule which means that whatever country he is leaving from is extremely important and since it is not perfectly clear that he is leaving Hyrule, and since the last scene with Link in it is him speaking to his friends in Labrynna/Holodrum, it seems pretty clear he is leaving Labrynna/Holodrum and not Hyrule. As DarkLink said earlier, it makes absolutely no sense to have him mysteriously leaving Hyrule instead of one of the 2 places he actually has been the entire game.

You told me to stop making up crap, I am going to politely ask you to do the same, because you're only argument for this is "it doesn't say he was leaving Labrynna/Holodrum so it could still be Hyrule."

Stop making up crap, please.

Bob Majinki

07-13-2009, 07:11 PM

I personally am one who likes LttP - OoX - LA since I'm one of the "8-Zelda" generation, as I call it, which came up with a timeline before the 9th Zelda, Wind Waker. The one thing that unsettles me is that OoX seems to have connections to OoT (Jabu Jabu, Zoras, Gorons, etc.) and so while it is placed near the end of the timeline, it seems like something that belongs at the beginning. PH also disorients me since it seems to be almost a parallel LA if you think about it.

The way I've always seen LA is that Link's past memories are brought to life in this game. You see Ganon and Aghanim from LttP, and you also see many OoX enemies as well. You may write that off as a recycling of graphics, but we have to make do with what we got.

LttP's end and OoX's opening are similar, but it's important to distinguish the differences. OoX's ending and LA's opening are similar again. LttP's ending and LA's opening are far apart and not similar whatsoever. It is impossible to deny the similarities, or write it off as recycled graphics.

To the guy who said "The only way to get from Holodrum/Labrynna is by boat," need I remind you that Link got to those places via Triforce teleportation? So clearly that's not the only way, magic does exist in the games. I mean, just look at them for a moment; that much should be obvious.

Both theories, to me, can work. I prefer to put LA after OoX since I feel that it fits better there. There's still inconsistencies with both of them though, especially if you try to throw Minish Cap's references to OoX into the equation.

sign of table

07-15-2009, 04:49 PM

You told me to stop making up crap, I am going to politely ask you to do the same, because you're only argument for this is "it doesn't say he was leaving Labrynna/Holodrum so it could still be Hyrule."

Stop making up crap, please. I'll agree it's a definate implication. But Link left from Hyrule in OoX anyway.
He leaves whichever the last one you played. Both have oceans and coastlines, and both contain roughly the same characters. Zelda isn't looking out at the ocean either, she is looking into the sky. The only thing from the ending pic that would resemble Hyrule is the castle in the background, but that is not solid proof either as both Labrynna and Holodrum have castle structures in them. 1) If he leaves whichever the last one you played then they would look different. 2) There's a little blue patch in the picture with Zelda that I always thought was the ocean, cause it kinda looks like it and fits in with the next scene perfectly. 3) No. Labrynna has a big *** tower, Holodrum has... nothing as far as I remember.

When you see Zelda looking over mountains and in the distance you see something that looks like ocean, then the next scene Link is on a boat in the ocean and the background shows a castle behind some mountains, what are we supposed to think? It's Hyrule castle.
I believe I already answered this question. Sounds like your the one who needs to be reading posts. Last time I asked this question you said the proof was LA since it's a sequel to LttP.

I have yet to see you post evidence for LttP/LA. Maybe I missed it. Or maybe you haven't posted it. Either way I haven't read any evidence from you. If you post all of your evidence in your next post I'll be sure to see and read it.
I doesn't, but it should would have helped your theory out quite a bit. Good thing he does leave Hyrule in OoX.
Isn't that what I am doing/have done here? Have you not realized that there have been multiple reasons thrown at you in this discussion? Then I have missed them all and I apologize for that. The only thing I've noticed you posting is the part about Link leaving Hyrule from LA, which he does in OoX anyway.

Actually after reading through all of the posts in this thread again the only evidence you said for your placement was: "Read it again. It clearly implies that he defeated Ganon and LEFT HYRULE in search of enlightenment." OoX Link left Hyrule in the end. So the only evidence that I've seen after rereading the entire thread is moot.

And if you're going to reply with ANYTHING such as "I've given evidence that you haven't responded to" don't. If you have I've clearly missed it. Point out the "evidence" that I've missed so I can respond to it instead of talking about how I failed to respond to it before.
Does that have to mean that peace in Hyrule has crumbled? Well the prophecy says that peace in Hyrule is supposed to have crumbled when Link comes. Nothing contradicts it. Therefore peace in Hyrule has crumbled.
Your the one who keeps saying the enemies are important to OoX/LA I've never said that they ARE important. Actually on multiple occasions I've said that they easily may mean nothing, but that it's worth noting because they MAY mean something. Want me to quote it for you?
Enemies may mean nothing,
As I said it could mean nothing. But it IS worth noting because it MAY NOT be reusing of sprites. Saying it IS laziness is being extremely biased.
[quote] the end scene (geography) implies that Link is leaving Hyrule. There are so many things I could say about this, but I'd be afraid of getting an infraction for any swearing I might say, so I'll try and keep this as clean as possible.

You can't say that OoX Link left Labrynna/Holodrum without giving proof, then when I give proof using the only picture possible to give proof for either side you deny it.

There are so many things wrong with that.

I am thoroughly convinced that you are not reading my posts, or you are scanning them. If you had read my posts you wouldn't have replied with something I've covered tons of times.

EVERYTHING of LA can refer to OoX just as well as LttP.

Oh and @Zemen: I agree that it's implied he left Hyrule. Which he did in OoX as well.

But I do stand by what I said. It DOESN'T say he left Hyrule
You, who regained the peace of Hyrule from the demonic hands of the king of evil, Ganon, had not enjoyed the achieved tranquility for too long, and had embarked on a journey of training in preparation for new disasters.

EDIT: I forgot to add a few words which would have made one of my sentances make little-to-no sense.

MrMosley

07-15-2009, 05:23 PM

That last post was pretty pointless, Sign. All you said over and over was how Link for sure leaves Hyrule in OoX, when you have no proof. Your making assumptions and trying to turn them into facts and its not working to your advantage at all. And no, we are not supposed to all of a sudden think he's leaving Hyrule when he's been in Holodrum/Labrynna the ENTIRE GAME. Tell me one person (besides yourself, of course), who would automatically think that?

Zelda wasn't looking in the ocean, she was looking in the sky. The boat at the end is as important as the horse at the beginning. The only reason people make the connection between OoX being before LA is because of that boat at the end. I could just as easily say "Well, at the time, the split wasn't confirmed, and OoX was supposed to take place after MM", and you would technically have no way to argue that.

You can continue to be a child and make up stuff all day long and post spammy threads if you want but really its quite pointless when you think about it. Your upset because you can't be right, obviously. If you want to believe that its OoX/LA, then fine, but don't post it here. The intent of this thread was not to have us come on and copy pages full of quotes all day. We have a thread for LA and OoX placement, made by Zemen actually. So if you want to argue those points further, do it there.

--EDIT--

~Moved most of the posts to LA and OoX placement thread~

sign of table

07-15-2009, 05:47 PM

Your making assumptions and trying to turn them into facts and its not working to your advantage at all. I'm making assumptions about it? It's clear that that was Hyrule. You know what? I'm gonna ask ZU, a very LttP/LA biased site, where he was leaving from in OoX.

The castle is identical to the one in the beginning.
Tell me one person (besides yourself, of course), who would automatically thing that? Never actually had to debate this with anyone 'cause everyone knows that this is one of the clearest things in the series.
Tell me one person (besides yourself, of course), who would automatically think that? I've posted a thread on ZU for that very purpose.
You can continue to be a child and make up stuff all day long Wait when did I make stuff up? I posted proof for my side, then you basically said "nuh uh why would he suddenly be in Hyrule?" Well what if they were, you know, SETTING UP FREAKEN LA LIKE I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME.

He's leaving Hyrule as evident by the castle that doesn't appear in Holodrum or Labrynna.
Your upset because you can't be right, obviously. If you want to believe that its OoX/LA, then fine, but don't post it here. I'm angry because you're being condescending as hell, haven't actually read my posts, and haven't replied with any viable evidence once in the whole damn thread.

EDIT: Hey look my thread: http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/zelda-theorizing/96752-asking-for-zus-opinion-on-something.html already has someone posting.

Would you look at that. One of the most absolutely biased people against OoX/LA in all of theorizing, and one of the best theorists in all of theorizing, agrees that he's leaving Hyrule.

Huh so the first reply and I already have someone who disagrees with the placement agreeing with me.

Yeah I'M making things up...

MrMosley

07-15-2009, 06:01 PM

I'm making assumptions about it? It's clear that that was Hyrule. You know what? I'm gonna ask ZU, a very LttP/LA biased site, where he was leaving from in OoX.

Ummm, okay.

He's leaving Hyrule as evident by the castle that doesn't appear in Holodrum or Labrynna. I'm angry because you're being condescending as hell, haven't actually read my posts, and haven't replied with any viable evidence once in the whole damn thread.

There's been plenty of evidence. More or less I was using obvious intent. You have been basically doing the same thing. LA states that Link defeated Ganon and left for training and preparation for another disaster. LA's intent is speaking from the events of ALttP, obviously, as OoX wasn't made at the time. Sure, you could take OoX and stick it in between them and say that they made OoX to fit the BS of LA, but it fits ALttP as well and better IMO considering that OoX didn't take place in Hyrule.

According to LA's manual, Ganon was terrorizing Hyrule. This was its intent. He had a reign of tyrany over that land as he was in control of Agahnim, who was doing his bidding there, obviously killing the king and taking Zelda captive. In OoX, nothing happens in Hyrule. Ganon's "clutches" are in no part over Hyrule at all. Ganon is halfway revived at the very end, and has time to growl and moan before Link defeats him. I have yet to figure out how a halfway Ganon, moaning and growling, in Labrynna/Holodrum, has cause any bit of tyranny over Hyrule.

Zemen

07-15-2009, 07:21 PM

I'm going to agree that it makes sense (based on the picture and other evidence) if it is Hyrule that Link is seen leaving at the end of OoX but the problem I have with that is the people he's waving to. It makes no sense that Link made all of these friends in Holodrum/Labrynna and he's seen leaving Hyrule and waving goodbye to people who weren't even featured in the game. I hope that this is something we can agree on, SoJ, just the fact that it doesn't really make much sense, even if it is what's happening.

Also, I am going to agree with DarkLink when he was explaining how the LA BS says that Link stops Ganon from the clutches and tyranny he had over Hyrule.

Ganon was in OoX long enough for one, short battle which didn't take place in Hyrule, so exactly how was Ganon causing terror in Hyrule if he was only HALF alive for only a few moments AND in a completely different country? If anything, it was Onox and Veran(?) who were terrorizing anything with the help of Koume and Kotake and even then, Hyrule was not being attacked upon at all. The BS for LA clearly is discussing the terrorization of Hyrule and no other place, yet Hyrule seemed to be unaffected by anything that happened in OoX. Ganon was not around long enough to terrorize anything and he's the only enemy discussed in the LA BS.

I'll bet money you (or someone else) would give the age old response of "the BS doesn't have to match perfectly" and I really hope you aren't the type of theorist to do so because it's just a bull**** reason to not come up with an argument.

Ganon terrorizing Hyrule is the main point in the BS of LA and is something that never happens in OoX.

It's like saying that there was a Link between OoT and WW when we are clearly told there wasn't.

Midna666

07-15-2009, 07:44 PM

Zemen

07-16-2009, 12:17 AM

The ALTTP-OOX-LA does not make sense since the Oracle Link and Zelda are not the same Link and Zelda from ALTTP.

There's a scene in OOX where Zelda introduced herself to Link.
If this was the same Zelda from ALTTP then her and Link should know each other already.

That's why I don't believe in ALTTP-OOX-LA.

In the defense of ALTTP-OoX-LA, if Zelda introduced herself to Link in OoX, this wouldn't affect LA's placement at all. There is nothing that says OoX Link has to be the same Link as the one from ALTTP if it goes after ALTTP.

I still believe ALTTP/LA-OoX but I like to play devil's advocate.

Skull_Kid

07-16-2009, 08:38 AM

In the defense of ALTTP-OoX-LA, if Zelda introduced herself to Link in OoX, this wouldn't affect LA's placement at all. There is nothing that says OoX Link has to be the same Link as the one from ALTTP if it goes after ALTTP.

I still believe ALTTP/LA-OoX but I like to play devil's advocate.

At least midna killed those theories that place OoX between ALttP and LA.
OoX, actually, fit as well as after OoX, but not as a direct sequel, as they fit after LA, also not as a direct sequel.

Erimgard

07-16-2009, 02:06 PM

At least midna killed those theories that place OoX between ALttP and LA.
OoX, actually, fit as well as after OoX, but not as a direct sequel, as they fit after LA, also not as a direct sequel.

I don't think I understood anything you just said.

-What does Midna have to do with OoX?
-I think you switched up an "OoX" and an "aLttP" in that second sentence

Skull_Kid

07-17-2009, 09:11 AM

I don't think I understood anything you just said.

-What does Midna have to do with OoX?
-I think you switched up an "OoX" and an "aLttP" in that second sentence

I was referring to the user midna666, in case you haven't been following the thread...

What I switched was AoL and OoX. I meant: OoX fits as well as after AoL, but not as a direct sequel, as they fit after LA, also not as a direct sequel..

Sorry

Darknut

07-17-2009, 09:50 PM

I think that the order is ALttP-LA-OoX. I didn't read all of your...post, so if I missed something making it obvious it's not this order, well I'm sorry. :bomb:

Zombi Link

07-26-2009, 10:34 PM

Always thought of LA coming straight after LTTP. It just seemed right to me but who knows.

sign of table

07-27-2009, 07:12 AM

I contemplated about whether or not to come back to this site after DarkLink edited my post for "spam". I didn't spam, I said one thing repeatedly and in caps because I'd covered that point about 5 times, you had never responded, then you continued to act as if OoX could ever be the training mention in the LA manual. And then you go and edit my post when I say it over and over in caps so you'll actually read it and stop using that argument?

Anyways...

There's been plenty of evidence. More or less I was using obvious intent. You have been basically doing the same thing. You haven't stated any evidence exclusive to LttP so far.
Sure, you could take OoX and stick it in between them and say that they made OoX to fit the BS of LA, Why would you stick it between them? That causes more problems than it solves.
but it fits ALttP as well and better You've yet to prove why it fits better.
IMO considering that OoX didn't take place in Hyrule. It doesn't need to.

According to LA's manual, Ganon was terrorizing Hyrule. Wrong. ALL that it requires is for Link to restore peace to Hyrule by defeating Ganon. WHICH LINK IN OOX DID.
This was its intent. Bolded and italicized the key word.
He had a reign of tyrany over that land as he was in control of Agahnim, who was doing his bidding there, obviously killing the king and taking Zelda captive. Of course.

And the king is alive at the end of LttP IIRC.
In OoX, nothing happens in Hyrule. Zelda disagrees.
Ganon's "clutches" are in no part over Hyrule at all. But peace has crumbled in Hyrule.
Ganon is halfway revived at the very end, and has time to growl and moan before Link defeats him. I have yet to figure out how a halfway Ganon, moaning and growling, in Labrynna/Holodrum, has cause any bit of tyranny over Hyrule. He doesn't have to. Read the manual for christ's sake. All it says on the matter is thus: "You, who regained the peace of Hyrule from the demonic hands of the king of evil, Ganon" Where in hell are you getting this tyranny crap? Non of that is required in the slightest for LA.

I'm going to agree that it makes sense (based on the picture and other evidence) if it is Hyrule that Link is seen leaving at the end of OoX but the problem I have with that is the people he's waving to. It makes no sense that Link made all of these friends in Holodrum/Labrynna and he's seen leaving Hyrule and waving goodbye to people who weren't even featured in the game. I hope that this is something we can agree on, SoJ, just the fact that it doesn't really make much sense, even if it is what's happening. Someone on ZU showed that most of those people are cut and pasted over and over again.

It doesn't have to make sense for it to be fact *glances at the Song of Storms paradox*

Also, I am going to agree with DarkLink when he was explaining how the LA BS says that Link stops Ganon from the clutches and tyranny he had over Hyrule. If you'd read the actual manual you'd know that Ganon wouldn't need to control Hyrule.

Ganon was in OoX long enough for one, short battle which didn't take place in Hyrule, so exactly how was Ganon causing terror in Hyrule if he was only HALF alive for only a few moments AND in a completely different country? Clearly he doesn't need to. Seriously read the manual. It doesn't require anything that you keep going on about.
If anything, it was Onox and Veran(?) who were terrorizing anything with the help of Koume and Kotake So?
and even then, Hyrule was not being attacked upon at all. According to Zelda peace in Hyrule had crumbled. Which is all that is required for LA.
The BS for LA clearly is discussing the terrorization of Hyrule and no other place, It discusses no terrorization.
yet Hyrule seemed to be unaffected by anything that happened in OoX. Zelda says otherwise.
Ganon was not around long enough to terrorize anything Once again for like the 15th time, he never needed to.
and he's the only enemy discussed in the LA BS. So?

I'll bet money you (or someone else) would give the age old response of "the BS doesn't have to match perfectly" and I really hope you aren't the type of theorist to do so because it's just a bull**** reason to not come up with an argument. Why would I? You've yet to post any inconsistencies.

Ganon terrorizing Hyrule is the main point in the BS of LA and is something that never happens in OoX. 2 things:
1) Ganon doesn't need to terrorize Hyrule, for the umpteenth time.
2) 1 sentence out of 18 is the main point? lol

It's like saying that there was a Link between OoT and WW when we are clearly told there wasn't. Difference is, we haven't been told anything that prevents OoX Link from being LttP Link.

If you post anything along the lines of "But Ganon was terrorizing Hyrule!" I'm am going to flip out. Read my posts and read the manual. It is not required in any way. Stop acting like it is.

Post real evidence, no opinionated crap. Because you have not done so thus far.

Zemen

07-27-2009, 11:53 AM

Hahah I am posting real evidence. You just seem to think that your ASSUMPTIONS are more important than the evidence we are taking directly from the game and the manual. You have clearly posted what the manual states and the manual clearly states "You, who regained the peace of Hyrule from the demonic hands of the king of evil, Ganon"

I don't get what part of that makes you think that Ganon doesn't need to be in control of Hyrule because that sentence right there says to me "Link saved Hyrule from Ganons reign"

I seriously feel like you need to calm down and actually read what YOU are writing because you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that Ganon taking over Hyrule doesn't need to happen and I'm gonna use one of your responses to that....The LA BS would disagree.

The BS of LA isn't about Hyrule having peace restored IN GENERAL. It's about Hyrule having peace regained FROM GANON who had absolutely no control over Hyrule during OoX seeing as how he was only alive (and barely, at that) for a few moments. Stop saying it doesn't matter, because it DOES, very much so.

sign of table

07-27-2009, 04:12 PM

I don't get what part of that makes you think that Ganon doesn't need to be in control of Hyrule because that sentence right there says to me "Link saved Hyrule from Ganons reign" What happens in OoX when you defeat Ganon?
You say that Ganon taking over Hyrule doesn't need to happen and I'm gonna use one of your responses to that....The LA BS would disagree. Well, see, the LA BS never says that Ganon has control of Hyrule, it ONLY SAYS THAT YOU REGAINED PEACE FROM GANON. Link of OoX is fated to show up when peace in Hyrule crumbles, so peace HAS crumbled. Link defeats Ganon. Peace returns to Hyrule.

That applies in every way to the LA BS.
It's about Hyrule having peace regained FROM GANON who had absolutely no control over Hyrule during OoX seeing as how he was only alive (and barely, at that) for a few moments. Stop saying it doesn't matter, because it DOES, very much so. I never said it doesn't matter, I just said you were wrong.

So tell me this, when you defeat Ganon, what happens? Here I'll give you a hint. Zelda says this after you defeat Ganon. "Now hope and peace will return to the hearts of the people."

MrMosley

07-27-2009, 05:35 PM

So tell me this, when you defeat Ganon, what happens? Here I'll give you a hint. Zelda says this after you defeat Ganon. "Now hope and peace will return to the hearts of the people."

She doesn't specify which people she is talking about. Any normal player of the games would understand that she is probably talking about the people of Labrynna and Holodrum, seeing as how that's where they are at. Now if she said the people of Hyrule, it would be a different story.

Zemen

07-27-2009, 05:54 PM

What happens in OoX when you defeat Ganon?

You answered that yourself by saying that peace returns to the PEOPLE. No where does it say that peace returned to Hyrule or that Hyrule was ever even in any danger. But apparently that doesn't matter to you.

I never said it doesn't matter

Here are quotes from you that totally disprove what you just said.

DL says - "IMO considering that OoX didn't take place in Hyrule."
You say - "It doesn't need to."

DL says - "Ganon is halfway revived at the very end, and has time to growl and moan before Link defeats him. I have yet to figure out how a halfway Ganon, moaning and growling, in Labrynna/Holodrum, has cause any bit of tyranny over Hyrule."
You say - "He doesn't have to."

I say - "Also, I am going to agree with DarkLink when he was explaining how the LA BS says that Link stops Ganon from the clutches and tyranny he had over Hyrule."
You say - "If you'd read the actual manual you'd know that Ganon wouldn't need to control Hyrule."

I say - "Ganon was in OoX long enough for one, short battle which didn't take place in Hyrule, so exactly how was Ganon causing terror in Hyrule if he was only HALF alive for only a few moments AND in a completely different country?"
You say - "It doesn't require anything that you keep going on about."

I say - "Ganon was not around long enough to terrorize anything."
You say - "Once again for like the 15th time, he never needed to."

I say - "Ganon terrorizing Hyrule is the main point in the BS of LA and is something that never happens in OoX"
You say - "Ganon doesn't need to terrorize Hyrule, for the umpteenth time."

It seems to me that you've said about umpteen times that it doesn't matter and now you're saying that you've never said that. Stop contradicting yourself.

So tell me this, when you defeat Ganon, what happens? Here I'll give you a hint. Zelda says this after you defeat Ganon. "Now hope and peace will return to the hearts of the people."

No part of that says that peace returned to Hyrule. As DarkLink said, anyone with a brain would assume she's talking about Labrynna/Holodrum's people seeing as how those are the 2 places the series takes place... Way to feed yourself your own poison with that one... Just because Zelda is the one that says peace will return to the people doesn't mean that she's talking about HER people.

It's kinda funny that your only good argument up this point was that Zelda supposedly said that peace returns to Hyrule after you beat OoX but then you later posted that quote and all she says is that peace will return to the heart of the people (she never once mentions Hyrule) and when we addressed that little problem you never replied to those posts. All of your posts are moot to the fact that Zelda never once said peace would return to Hyrule. Anyone with half a brain would know that shes talking about peace returning to the hearts of the people of Holodrum and Labrynna.

Skull_Kid

07-28-2009, 09:10 AM

Zemen

07-28-2009, 12:50 PM

I think that I provided a good answer a few posts above after midna666 quoted a quote from Princess Zelda herself.

She INTRODUCES to Link when she first appears to him in the Oracles.
If these games were between ALttP and LA, it would have to be the same Link, and ALttP Link and Zelda already knew each other.
So why would she still need to introduce herself to our green capped hero?

Precisely! So let's take a look at both sides evidence that we have thus far and see which side is more substantial.

ALTTP/LA-OoX Evidence:

We have obvious original intent for LA to be a direct sequel as the games boss gives visions of past monsters fought (and one of the bosses forms is a shadow version of Aghanim).

We have the BS of LA that tells us that Link, who had just restored peace to Hyrule from the clutches of the king of darkness, Ganon, goes off to foreign lands to train.

That BS would only allow LA to possibly go after 4 games (LoZ, ALTTP or OoX). It can't be after LoZ because LoZ already has a direct sequel to it. It can't be after OoX because Link was sent to Holodrum/Labrynna against his own will whereas in the BS for LA it says he set off (of his own accord) to train in foreign lands. Also, Ganon never wreaked havoc in Hyrule during OoX. His minions wreaked havoc in Holodrum/Labrynna. Ganon was only HALF alive for moments in OoX. Not enough time to consider him as a threat to a country he wasn't even in.

Also, as Skull Kid said, if OoX did go after ALTTP it could not be a direct sequel as Zelda has to introduce herself to Link in OoX.

ALLTP/OoX-LA Evidence

A couple of enemies that only in appear in OoX and LA and since LA has Link's memories you guys believe that LA must come after a time when those enemies were met. This can best be explained by a rehashing of sprites because the 2 games used almost the exact same graphics engine.

Also, the owl in LA says to Link (not exact quote but very close to it) "It's good that you are here. All of the monsters on the island have been acting hostile recently. Please figure out what the problem is."

That quote from the owl is said to Link as soon as he find his sword which is only moments after he wakes up in the bed of Talons house. The way he talks about how the monsters have recently become hostile makes it sound like the monsters were there before Link was and they used to live peacefully. If the monsters were there before Link was then it's possible that the monsters actually aren't taken from Link's memories making the argument about exclusive monsters quite moot.

Another piece of evidence for this placement is the boat at the end of OoX that you are seen going away in. It looks like the boat in LA. That's pretty much the best evidence people who argue this placement have. The reason this argument is terrible is because the boats used are in no way out of the ordinary looking. If you told a 7 year old to draw a sail boat, the boats in OoX and LA are what he would draw. They are so ordinary and simple that, to me, there are probably hundreds of boats like them in the Zelda world.

Another (terrible) piece of evidence is the quote from Zelda saying "now peace will return to the hearts of the people." and for some god forsaken reason some of you (SoJ) think that this quote refers to the peace that was brought back to Hyrule. I think it's safe to say that this quote is talking about the people of Holodrum/Labrynna since those were the people Link was trying to save.

Skull_Kid

07-30-2009, 08:25 AM

Zemen

07-30-2009, 09:43 AM

How could Ganon's half-completed ressurrection affect Hyrule?
He never left the TwinRova's hideout, and was half-alive for just a few moments.
At the beggining of the Oracles, we see the Triforce(The complete one, not just a piece) sending Link to either Holodrum or Labrynna(depending on game), I don't think that it would send Link there if Hyrule's piece was in question.
The point is, it were those two "distant" lands that were endangered, Hyrule was clearly at peace, even more so, Zelda travelled to those lands.
Do you think that she would leave her Country and her beloved people if Hyrule was in Danger?
Of course not. I believe that, in the same way that the Triforce summoned Link, if a greater evil loomed upon Hyrule, it would have warped him back.

And yes, the quote in wich Zelda says that peace returned to the heart of people CLEARLY is referring to Labrynna and Holodrum, even my 7 year old brother got that when he played the games.

Just give me a good reason why a half-alive mindless Ganon, who was nothing more than a walking vessel capable of nothing but destruction and was killed moments after being ressurrected could EVER affect Hyrule?

I can already tell you what SoJ's response to this will be.

"He doesn't have to affect Hyrule." That's the same response he's given everyone else. Apparently when they tell you that Ganon is reigning over Hyrule, we're not supposed to take it literally...go figure.

In response to you, SoJ, which game does Zelda call Link "the hero destined to appear when peace in Hyrule crumbles"? If it's OoX I would like you to post the exact quote, because last time you told us about something Zelda said (peace returns to Hyrule), it ended up being something completely different (peace returns to the hearts of the people). I just want to make sure that this time she doesn't say that he's "the hero destined to appear when peace crumbles" rather than being "the hero who appears when peace crumbles in Hyrule."

MrMosley

07-30-2009, 09:56 AM

In response to you, SoJ, which game does Zelda call Link "the hero destined to appear when peace in Hyrule crumbles"? If it's OoX I would like you to post the exact quote, because last time you told us about something Zelda said (peace returns to Hyrule), it ended up being something completely different (peace returns to the hearts of the people). I just want to make sure that this time she doesn't say that he's "the hero destined to appear when peace crumbles" rather than being "the hero who appears when peace crumbles in Hyrule."

Not that it makes my mind change about the order, but she does specify peace crumbling in Hyrule (skip to about 4:20). At the beginning (at least of OoA), Impa says that the mark is that of a Hyrulean Hero. Here is the ending just for some reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UofFsnbdctU

Zemen

07-30-2009, 05:49 PM

Not that it makes my mind change about the order, but she does specify peace crumbling in Hyrule (skip to about 4:20). At the beginning (at least of OoA), Impa says that the mark is that of a Hyrulean Hero. Here is the ending just for some reference.

She never said that he appeared BECAUSE peace crumbled in Hyrule. The whole point is that none of the battles, monsters, danger happened in Hyrule. It was all in completely different countries than Hyrule. SoJ's main argument deals with Hyrule which this game has no connection to.

MrMosley

07-30-2009, 05:54 PM

She never said that he appeared BECAUSE peace crumbled in Hyrule. The whole point is that none of the battles, monsters, danger happened in Hyrule. It was all in completely different countries than Hyrule. SoJ's main argument deals with Hyrule which this game has no connection to.

Right, I agree there. But the point of the quote was that Zelda says that the Triforce on his hand is supposed to mean peace has crumbled in Hyrule. What I think is that this could just be a legend. The Triforce symbol has obviously been on the hand of about every Link of every Zelda game, where most of those games took place in Hyrule where peace was shaken. So this tale is probably a legend that she is referring to. It doesn't have to mean he is there because peace has crumbled in Hyrule, like you said Zemen, but only that that's what it meant in the past.

Hayzer

08-09-2009, 02:02 PM

@SoJ:

There's more evidence against ALttP--OoX--LA than for it.

If you look at the status of the Triforce (which is something I like to do alot :D), at the end of ALttP the Triforce is in the Sarced Realm...How did it get to Hyrule Castle in OoX? If anything counts for anything, the timeline makes more sense if it were to go: OoX--ALttP--LA

But of course that's just me. It's a very hard game to place in the timeline because nothing about it's placement was revealed, sort of like FS/FSA, but those two games aren't relevant here, so I won't say anything about them. Every other game besides those four have had they're placement pretty much explained as best as it could be.

I'm generally impartial though. I can roll with ALttP/LA--OoX, or OoX--ALttP/LA, but I lean more toward the second.

Zemen

08-09-2009, 02:09 PM

Hayzer

08-09-2009, 02:21 PM

Why, in God's name, do you put OoX before ALTTP? What's your evidence for that?

It's pretty weak, but if you think about it a little it makes sense. To explain it though I have to bring up AoL. (I'm one of those people that accept the Miyamoto Timeline as truth) In AoL, the Triforce is together at Hyrule Castle. Same in the Beginning of OoX. Plus there's another attempt to resurrect Ganon (the only other time (besides ALttP) he's actually died was in LoZ). Plus, ALttP makes a great ending to the CT. The Master Sword is done, Ganon's dead, and Link ventures off. A near perfect ending to the series if I do say so myself.

But like I said before, I'm really impartial. It's just something that makes sense.

In reality, the only thing I don't get about the ALttP/LA--OoX timeline is how the Triforce gets from the Sacred Realm in ALttP to Hyrule Castle in OoX. Can you explain that to me?

Zemen

08-09-2009, 02:36 PM

In reality, the only thing I don't get about the ALttP/LA--OoX timeline is how the Triforce gets from the Sacred Realm in ALttP to Hyrule Castle in OoX. Can you explain that to me?

I can't give you a good explanation and you can't give me a good explanation why OoX should go before ALTTP other than the Triforce. There is much more evidence to put it after ALTTP but you are only looking at the Triforce. This is in no way supposed to offend you, but looking at one piece of evidence (the Triforce) to make your entire timeline is the worst idea ever. You can't use one piece of evidence, especially something as mysterious as the Triforce.

Here's a good answer to "how it moves"

The Triforce has the following powers.

-It grants wishes.
-It gives strange powers to whoever holds the individual pieces (other than Link, so far).
-It can, and has, actually talked before.
-It has been shown teleporting Link to other locations (OoX).

With all of that in mind, do you really think it's crazy that it might be able to move on its own or make itself teleport somewhere? I can tell you right now that it makes no sense that someone else moved it, because if they touched it it would have either broken apart or granted a wish and then broken apart. It really only makes sense that it moved on its own somehow.

Hayzer

08-09-2009, 04:05 PM

I can't give you a good explanation and you can't give me a good explanation why OoX should go before ALTTP other than the Triforce. There is much more evidence to put it after ALTTP but you are only looking at the Triforce. This is in no way supposed to offend you, but looking at one piece of evidence (the Triforce) to make your entire timeline is the worst idea ever. You can't use one piece of evidence, especially something as mysterious as the Triforce.

Here's a good answer to "how it moves"

The Triforce has the following powers.

-It grants wishes.
-It gives strange powers to whoever holds the individual pieces (other than Link, so far).
-It can, and has, actually talked before.
-It has been shown teleporting Link to other locations (OoX).

With all of that in mind, do you really think it's crazy that it might be able to move on its own or make itself teleport somewhere? I can tell you right now that it makes no sense that someone else moved it, because if they touched it it would have either broken apart or granted a wish and then broken apart. It really only makes sense that it moved on its own somehow.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. ALttP/LA--OoX.

So, I don't have anything else to debate then. Other than the Plothole of the Triforce, this seems pretty solid.

And that's NOT supposed to be sarcastic, by the way.

Skull_Kid

08-10-2009, 06:10 AM

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. ALttP/LA--OoX.

So, I don't have anything else to debate then. Other than the Plothole of the Triforce, this seems pretty solid.

And that's NOT supposed to be sarcastic, by the way.

What Triforce Plot Hole?
At the end of ALttP, it was complete, at the Beggining of OoX, it's still complete.
Any doubts?
Even though I think that OoX make more sense after AoL

Hayzer

08-10-2009, 09:58 AM

What Triforce Plot Hole?
At the end of ALttP, it was complete, at the Beggining of OoX, it's still complete.
Any doubts?
Even though I think that OoX make more sense after AoL

How the Triforce got from the Sacred Realm in ALttP to Hyrule Castle in OoX...

Zemen

08-10-2009, 03:07 PM

What Triforce Plot Hole?
At the end of ALttP, it was complete, at the Beggining of OoX, it's still complete.
Any doubts?
Even though I think that OoX make more sense after AoL

Exactly my thoughts as well. You should check out my timeline thread I recently posted (unless you already have. I don't remember).

How the Triforce got from the Sacred Realm in ALttP to Hyrule Castle in OoX...

As I stated before, the Triforce is capable of a lot of things so the fact that it changes its resting location isn't really a big deal. I'm surprised its movement shocks more than the fact that it has actually talked to Link before...

Raven

08-10-2009, 04:42 PM

I always had this theory that OoX was directly after MM. We see at the end of MM that Link rides away on his horse Epona, and the very beginning of OoX he is seen riding Epona to the temple of light where the triforce resides. Actually i'm not sure if that is the temple of light spoken of in OoT by the sage of light but that is where the triforce is said to be.
Anyway i figured that OoX was the hero of times GBC title although the official artwork would seem to imply that it's a different Link. Although who other than OoT Link would just happen accross the triforce. His journeys through Hyrule and Termina wear he gathers the power of the sages and becomes the fierce diety have earned him the right to enter the sacred realm however the triforce then sent him to other lands.
Why? maybe because there are places that link must save now that he is a true hero. The point is OoX was released right after after MM and the two plots just seemed to tie into each other at the time.
Lastly if anyone sees holes in this theory please let me know on ma profile.
:triforce:

MrMosley

08-10-2009, 04:47 PM

I always had this theory that OoX was directly after MM. We see at the end of MM that Link rides away on his horse Epona, and the very beginning of OoX he is seen riding Epona to the temple of light where the triforce resides. Actually i'm not sure if that is the temple of light spoken of in OoT by the sage of light but that is where the triforce is said to be.

That's what I figured when the game first came out. But there are a lot of holes in this theory. For example:

* In OoX, Zelda has to introduce herself to Link. Had it been the same Link from OoT/MM, she wouldn't have had to do this.

* Also, about the Triforce in the Temple of Light... That's not necessarily where the Triforce has to reside. I don't ever beleive it was stated to have been there. The Temple of Light is in the Sacred Realm, the original home of the Triforce. But the Triforce in OoX is in Hyrule Castle at the beginning. You learn this by reading the manual, where it says the Triforce was calling out to Link, so he followed this calling and came upon it.

* Ganon is dead in OoX. He never died at the end of OoT. In fact, he wasn't even sealed away on the CT, which is where MM takes place. The next thing that happened to Ganondorf after the CT of OoT was his sentencing, which you can see in TP.