Twilight Princess: A strange turn of events

[ChargewithSword]

Recently in my "Link's Father" thread, I had brought up a question that somewhat challenges Anouma's (sp) claim of Twilight Princess being at least 100 years after OOT.

Why are OOT Link and Zelda dead, but not Ganondorf?

Apparently since it seems to be accepted that the Hero's Spirit is Link's father and OOT Link. Why is he dead and an old adult at that yet Ganondorf looks as if he has only aged at least 20 years from his child timeline appearance.

Before anyone goes saying "The Triforce of Power stilled his age." Let me ask something. If Ganondorf had the Triforce of power for 100 years, why is Aribiter Grounds not a big piece of rubble right now? Apparently this fact challenges the theory of how TP could be 100 years after OOT. I don't have answers, but I only have a suggestion that TP could probably be at least 50-60 years after OOT a reasonable amount of time to pass, but still questionable.

I believe that this is up for a debate.

[MrMosley]

It is in fact because he still possesed the Triforce of Power. I don't know what you mean by "why isn't the Arbiter's Grounds a big piece of rubble", but the series makes many references to Ganon still being alive by way of the Triforce of Power. In fact, the ending scene where Ganon is seen drifting off into the white light at the end of OoT shows Ganondorf clearly saying that he will come for Link and Zelda's decendants "as long as he has the Triforce of Power in his hand". This clearly shows that Ganondorf knows the Triforce has the power to keep him alive, and his promise is confirmed whenever we see Wind Waker role around, as Ganondorf is still alive, still with his piece of the Triforce, and going rounds with the new generation of Link and Zelda.

As for Twilight Princess, Ganondorf was never killed in that game. After the events of OoT, Link is sent back through time to his childhood, where it is speculated that he and Zelda told the King of Hyrule of Ganondorf's plans, which led to the Sages attempting to execute Ganondorf. We see all of this during a cutscene in TP. The sages even stab Ganondorf through the gut with their blade, which then shows him seem to die, but come back to life after the Triforce lights up on his hand. This is a direct reference to it being able to keep him alive. After that, he is sent to the Twilight Realm, and the rest is history.

The entire scene in TP of Ganondorf's trial can be speculated to take place some short time after Link returns to his childhood in OoT, therefore at the time of the trial, the Hero of Time, as well as the Zelda from OoT, would still be alive. What took so long was the time from which Ganondorf was placed into the Twilight Realm, to the time that the events of TP take place, where the Twilight is taking over Hyrule, and Ganondorf has once again rose to power by the help of Zant. The 100 years obviously took place between Ganondorf's trial and the beginning of TP.

[ChargewithSword]

It is in fact because he still possesed the Triforce of Power. I don't know what you mean by "why isn't the Arbiter's Grounds a big piece of rubble", but the series makes many references to Ganon still being alive by way of the Triforce of Power. In fact, the ending scene where Ganon is seen drifting off into the white light at the end of OoT shows Ganondorf clearly saying that he will come for Link and Zelda's decendants "as long as he has the Triforce of Power in his hand". This clearly shows that Ganondorf knows the Triforce has the power to keep him alive, and his promise is confirmed whenever we see Wind Waker role around, as Ganondorf is still alive, still with his piece of the Triforce, and going rounds with the new generation of Link and Zelda.

As for Twilight Princess, Ganondorf was never killed in that game. After the events of OoT, Link is sent back through time to his childhood, where it is speculated that he and Zelda told the King of Hyrule of Ganondorf's plans, which led to the Sages attempting to execute Ganondorf. We see all of this during a cutscene in TP. The sages even stab Ganondorf through the gut with their blade, which then shows him seem to die, but come back to life after the Triforce lights up on his hand. This is a direct reference to it being able to keep him alive. After that, he is sent to the Twilight Realm, and the rest is history.

The question is why does he have it? If he had the Triforce of Power throughout his entire stay in the Aribiter Grounds, he would have destroyed it and escaped. Yet he waited for that one moment, when the Triforce of Power came to him.

How much Time elapsed before his execution? How was he kept in such shape throughout his imprisonment. If the execution was done say only a few days after Ganondorf was caught, then that means the events of TP should have happened in only say a few weeks from then. THe power of the Gods let him travel at his will.

What you said doesn't say why it took so long for him to get to the events of TP. He does not need to take such a long time to get back into the world of light, he needed a vessel. And Zant happened to be the perfect one for him.

[MrMosley]

The question is why does he have it? If he had the Triforce of Power throughout his entire stay in the Aribiter Grounds, he would have destroyed it and escaped. Yet he waited for that one moment, when the Triforce of Power came to him.

It seems to me that the power of the Triforce cannot be used at Ganondorf's immediate discresion or yeah, he probably would have completely destroyed the Arbiter's Grounds. It is shown through Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess both, that the power of the Triforce is granted mainly to Ganondorf at times when he needs it the most, or on the brink of death. In OoT, he uses it after being both defeated by Link and having an entire castle crumble on top of him. In TP, he uses it after being stabbed by a sword of light, infused with the power of the Sages. Without the Triforce, these events would have surely killed Ganondorf.


How much Time elapsed before his execution? How was he kept in such shape throughout his imprisonment. If the execution was done say only a few days after Ganondorf was caught, then that means the events of TP should have happened in only say a few weeks from then. THe power of the Gods let him travel at his will.


What you said doesn't say why it took so long for him to get to the events of TP. He does not need to take such a long time to get back into the world of light, he needed a vessel. And Zant happened to be the perfect one for him.

I would assume that there wasn't much time before his execution. Link obviously would have informed Zelda and the King as soon as he returned to his childhood, and I don't think the King would have waited too long to imprison Ganondorf. From then it would have only taken about a day for them to decide his fate. So as previously stated, it was most likely a day or so after Link returned to his childhood.

The events of TP don't have to happen only weeks after the trial. In fact, it would almost make no sense to have them happen that soon, for two big reasons. The King of Hyrule wouldn't have let Ganondorf live that long because that would give him time to find a way to escape, and wouldn't have taken that long to decide his fate as I'm sure they had strict laws during that time. The second reason is that we also see Ganon banished to other realms in other titles and having it take very long for him to get out of them. These in particular are OoT-WW and ALttP. The sealing of Ganon told in the manual/intro of ALttP apparently took place a long time before ALttP. So it took him a long time to use his power, being confined to the Dark World, to possess Agahnim (or take the form of Agahnim) and have him do his deeds in Hyrule during this time.

Equally, Ganondorf also still has the Triforce of Power in Wind Waker, which took place 100 years after Ocarina. We see there that it took 100 years roughly for Ganon to escape the realm in which he was placed in OoT, even with the power of the Triforce.

[sign of table]

Actually Jacensolo06 of LegendsAlliance retranslated the TP and tWW paralell interview. He said that he would translate it as hundreds of years.

Which makes a lot more sense.

And I wanna say that Aonuma also had an interview where he said something along the lines of "Ganondorf did something outrageous and got caught. The execution takes place a few years after OoT"

I'm almost positive there is an interview that says something like that. I'll try and find the exact quote.

[Midna666]

Actually Jacensolo06 of LegendsAlliance retranslated the TP and tWW paralell interview. He said that he would translate it as hundreds of years.

Which makes a lot more sense.

And I wanna say that Aonuma also had an interview where he said something along the lines of "Ganondorf did something outrageous and got caught. The execution takes place a few years after OoT"

I'm almost positive there is an interview that says something like that. I'll try and find the exact quote.

That interview is old news,and is probably known to most Zelda fan's by now.

[ChargewithSword]

It seems to me that the power of the Triforce cannot be used at Ganondorf's immediate discresion or yeah, he probably would have completely destroyed the Arbiter's Grounds. It is shown through Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess both, that the power of the Triforce is granted mainly to Ganondorf at times when he needs it the most, or on the brink of death. In OoT, he uses it after being both defeated by Link and having an entire castle crumble on top of him. In TP, he uses it after being stabbed by a sword of light, infused with the power of the Sages. Without the Triforce, these events would have surely killed Ganondorf.





I would assume that there wasn't much time before his execution. Link obviously would have informed Zelda and the King as soon as he returned to his childhood, and I don't think the King would have waited too long to imprison Ganondorf. From then it would have only taken about a day for them to decide his fate. So as previously stated, it was most likely a day or so after Link returned to his childhood.

The events of TP don't have to happen only weeks after the trial. In fact, it would almost make no sense to have them happen that soon, for two big reasons. The King of Hyrule wouldn't have let Ganondorf live that long because that would give him time to find a way to escape, and wouldn't have taken that long to decide his fate as I'm sure they had strict laws during that time. The second reason is that we also see Ganon banished to other realms in other titles and having it take very long for him to get out of them. These in particular are OoT-WW and ALttP. The sealing of Ganon told in the manual/intro of ALttP apparently took place a long time before ALttP. So it took him a long time to use his power, being confined to the Dark World, to possess Agahnim (or take the form of Agahnim) and have him do his deeds in Hyrule during this time.

Equally, Ganondorf also still has the Triforce of Power in Wind Waker, which took place 100 years after Ocarina. We see there that it took 100 years roughly for Ganon to escape the realm in which he was placed in OoT, even with the power of the Triforce.

In OOT he used the Triforce to battle you, he used it upon choice. That is why he raised his hand and used the power to keep Navi away.

1. The king thought Ganondorf was dead and everyone else except the sages though so too. But Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power with him, had he returned by normal means, there probably would not have been a Link there to save Hryule since in a few days that Link had gone on a journey to find a fairy.

2. OOT (Adult) never explained exactly at what time Ganondorf had escaped his imprisonment in the Sacred Realm, but I would guess that it couldn't have been that long since it happened when the Hero had disappeared.
Alttp is a bit different, Ganondorf actually needed a vessel. But what vessel was there to go back to Hyrule? Agahnim was from the light world since Ganon was trapped in the sacred realm. He needed to contact him from the Dark World which took much power since there were no effective gates at the time. During TP Ganondorf had his vessel as soon as he came in to the Twilight, and the gateway (Mirror of Twilight) was still there but Ganondorf needed a new body to go through (he was to weak from the wound given to him.) And since he had the Triforce of Power, and because OOT Link could not properly wield the Master Sword yet, he would have gone at any time.

[MrMosley]

In OOT he used the Triforce to battle you, he used it upon choice. That is why he raised his hand and used the power to keep Navi away.

Yeah, he is able to use the Triforce, but not in its fullness. If he could use the full power of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf would have easily became ruler of Hyrule early on, or defeated Link early on. It is clearly shown that he can only use the Triforce's full power at times of great distress, such as when he's about to die.

Ganondorf also already has the ability to use magic, so he is not entirely normal even without the Triforce of Power. In fact, the scene in OoT showing Zelda and Impa riding away from Ganondorf on horseback shows him create a ball of energy and blast Link with it. This same ball of energy is used during the battle with him at the end of the game, which is another reason why I don't believe he was using the full power of the Triforce. I would think it would have given him a little more to work with than just tossing a ball of energy out that he could have made on his own and floating in the air.

[ChargewithSword]

Yeah, he is able to use the Triforce, but not in its fullness. If he could use the full power of the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf would have easily became ruler of Hyrule early on, or defeated Link early on. It is clearly shown that he can only use the Triforce's full power at times of great distress, such as when he's about to die.

Ganondorf also already has the ability to use magic, so he is not entirely normal even without the Triforce of Power. In fact, the scene in OoT showing Zelda and Impa riding away from Ganondorf on horseback shows him create a ball of energy and blast Link with it. This same ball of energy is used during the battle with him at the end of the game, which is another reason why I don't believe he was using the full power of the Triforce. I would think it would have given him a little more to work with than just tossing a ball of energy out that he could have made on his own and floating in the air.

If I recall, he was battling another user of the Triforce. Who knows maybe the battle was only on even terms because Link was using his piece of the Triforce to keep him alive. Ganondorf was also very overconfident (if him flying around just throwing a ball of light at you without much else isn't overconfidence, then I don't know what. It's not like he couldn't use the Triforce, he was toying with you.
Yes he can use magic but let me say that I don't remember him being able to cast that giant ball, and even during the battle it took him some time to form it.

[Zemen]

i honestly find this whole thread to be pointless. the creators have told us it comes 100 years or so after OoT. i also dont understand why you think it could not take so long. lets think of it this way. you think that the event could have taken place weeks, months or a few years after OoT but that makes NO sense for a number of reasons.

reason number one is that there is no twilight realm in OoT and i doubt that within weeks, months or a few years the magic wielding tribe sent to the twilight realm wold be able to create their castle and learn to use the magic they have and thrive in that short amount of time. you said Ganondorf needs a vessel and Zant is his vessel. Zant is obviously an adult male which means that it cant come so close to OoT because there has to be some amount of time for him to be born and be an adult. even if the game was 50-60 years apart as you suggested that would be unrealistic because theoretically the original link could still be alive but there has never been two links in one game (except for FS/FSA which is a completely different scenario). the light sages knew that ganondorf had the triforce of power once they realized he wasnt dying. they obviously had to have sent him somewhere where they knew that the triforce of power would not allow him to escape so easily. if they knew he could just escape whenever he wanted then why would they banish him to begin with?

the creators say that the game takes place roughly 100 years after OoT and i think it makes perfect sense. there are deserted towns (kakariko village), a deserted desert where the Gerudo once lived but no longer do and there are new towns (ordon village). i think it would take longer than you suggested for all of this to happen.

[ChargewithSword]

i honestly find this whole thread to be pointless. the creators have told us it comes 100 years or so after OoT. i also dont understand why you think it could not take so long. lets think of it this way. you think that the event could have taken place weeks, months or a few years after OoT but that makes NO sense for a number of reasons.

reason number one is that there is no twilight realm in OoT and i doubt that within weeks, months or a few years the magic wielding tribe sent to the twilight realm wold be able to create their castle and learn to use the magic they have and thrive in that short amount of time. you said Ganondorf needs a vessel and Zant is his vessel. Zant is obviously an adult male which means that it cant come so close to OoT because there has to be some amount of time for him to be born and be an adult. even if the game was 50-60 years apart as you suggested that would be unrealistic because theoretically the original link could still be alive but there has never been two links in one game (except for FS/FSA which is a completely different scenario). the light sages knew that ganondorf had the triforce of power once they realized he wasnt dying. they obviously had to have sent him somewhere where they knew that the triforce of power would not allow him to escape so easily. if they knew he could just escape whenever he wanted then why would they banish him to begin with?

the creators say that the game takes place roughly 100 years after OoT and i think it makes perfect sense. there are deserted towns (kakariko village), a deserted desert where the Gerudo once lived but no longer do and there are new towns (ordon village). i think it would take longer than you suggested for all of this to happen.

Miyamoto told us the timeline, back when OOT was released, and now look what happened to that timeline. It's considered wrong and outdated now.

We don't know when the Twili came to be like this. They did not start at the begining of OOT because we know one about the Dark Tribe's connections. One is that Majora's Mask (the eye on the fused shadow cannot be a coincidance and resemble Majora's eye that much.) The Masked Salesmen told us the tribe had been wiped out long ago (he travels across worlds and found the mask in Hyrule so the tribe he speaks of can't be in Termina) and thus they have been trapped in the Twilight Realm long before OOT.
They didn't know he had the Triforce and neither did Ganondorf. They were intending to kill him, but when that failed they had to banish him out of panic from the death of the water sage.


Have you not seen the many bublins running about in TP, they make fortress of steel and rock. They had been terrorizing everyone and everything before Link came. And when Ganondorf was captured, it's obvious that the King of Hyrule had to send an army at least to face the Gerudos who were many strong.
Kakarico has been prone to attacked from the Bublins and was even sealed off by them, and shadow creatures as well. It's obvious that they were the ones who drove it's people away and left it in ruin.

[blackice_cc]

No, there's no way it could have taken only a few years for TP to happen. I mean, when Ganondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm, Zant probably wasn't even alive. The Twili that were already there (if there even were any) probably weren't suited for what Ganondorf needed. Maybe they weren't power-hungry enough. Or possibly the Dark Tribe was banished to the Twilight Realm a while after Ganondorf arrived there. Either one of those, or time in the Twilight Realm is not on the same plane as time in Hyrule, which could be very possible, but doesn't make as much sense as the others.
I don't see how you can contradict this, as even the creators say this is what happened.

[ChargewithSword]

No, there's no way it could have taken only a few years for TP to happen. I mean, when Ganondorf was banished to the Twilight Realm, Zant probably wasn't even alive. The Twili that were already there (if there even were any) probably weren't suited for what Ganondorf needed. Maybe they weren't power-hungry enough. Or possibly the Dark Tribe was banished to the Twilight Realm a while after Ganondorf arrived there. Either one of those, or time in the Twilight Realm is not on the same plane as time in Hyrule, which could be very possible, but doesn't make as much sense as the others.
I don't see how you can contradict this, as even the creators say this is what happened.

Did I say a few years? I said 50-60 that isn't a few. 100 is to much for such events to pass. The creators have been wrong before, because they don't know what they reveal in the future. Miyamoto present a poem and a timeline, and both are now considered wrong because of time. The events of MM tell of how the dark tribe was banished long before then. The happy mask salesman explains this.
Why did no one react to the death of the water sage? Because it happened in an age where the sages themselves have become myth and legend. The people now follow the spirits and ignore the sages completly. If the death of the water sage had happened during the time when Ganondorf was sent to prison, there probably would have been a search for a new sage at least, yet they have been ignored and they cannot leave the Aribiter Grounds.

[MrMosley]

Saying that the Dark Tribe in Termina is the same as the one mentioned in Hyrule is not a very good example of continuation. Termina was a completely different world altogether. Whether or not they had any knowledge of Hyrule or its gods has not been confirmed. Yes, there are references to the Triforce in Termina and people speculate that its people, or at least those in Ikana, were followers of Majora and made their monuments to disgrace the goddesses of Hyrule, but that is all speculation.

The bottom line is, if nothing has been confirmed, it cannot be considered true. The only thing we have to go on is what Miyamoto has said, and in some rare instances what Eonuma (sp?) has said, since many of his comments have been proven false, and just sounded down right confused when he made them.

Also, I'd like to point out about your coincidence statement, Sign, about that eye on Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadow. That same eye design has been used numerous times throughout the Zelda series. A few examples are with the Mask of Truth, Vaati's eye, Agahnim's eye design on his clothing, and the various stones throughout Hyrule in OoT. This design hasn't been proven to all be linked with one another, so I doubt that it all has to do with the same dark tribe, especially since its use has not always been for a dark purpose.

Another thing is the ball of energy I had talked about. It seems that many people do not remember this event when I talk about it, even though it was one of the more memorable cut scenes in OoT. Heres a vid to refresh everyone's memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEK20odBtE0


And that is the proof that Ganondorf already could use his magic in the same manner he did in the final battle. Ganondorf obviously used his piece of the Triforce more than Link or Zelda, probably because it was the Triforce of Power and granted him such. Link has never been shown to actually use the Triforce, therefore you must consider the names of each piece simply rather than a literal entire power fueled relic of each piece. The Triforce of Courage enables Link to have the courage to complete his journeys and in some instances defeat Ganon, however there have been times, such as with ALttP, that Link neither had nor needed use of the Triforce to accomplish this. It never kept him alive as it has done with Ganon over the years in the series.

[ChargewithSword]

Saying that the Dark Tribe in Termina is the same as the one mentioned in Hyrule is not a very good example of continuation. Termina was a completely different world altogether. Whether or not they had any knowledge of Hyrule or its gods has not been confirmed. Yes, there are references to the Triforce in Termina and people speculate that its people, or at least those in Ikana, were followers of Majora and made their monuments to disgrace the goddesses of Hyrule, but that is all speculation.

The bottom line is, if nothing has been confirmed, it cannot be considered true. The only thing we have to go on is what Miyamoto has said, and in some rare instances what Eonuma (sp?) has said, since many of his comments have been proven false, and just sounded down right confused when he made them.

Also, I'd like to point out about your coincidence statement, Sign, about that eye on Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadow. That same eye design has been used numerous times throughout the Zelda series. A few examples are with the Mask of Truth, Vaati's eye, Agahnim's eye design on his clothing, and the various stones throughout Hyrule in OoT. This design hasn't been proven to all be linked with one another, so I doubt that it all has to do with the same dark tribe, especially since its use has not always been for a dark purpose.

Another thing is the ball of energy I had talked about. It seems that many people do not remember this event when I talk about it, even though it was one of the more memorable cut scenes in OoT. Heres a vid to refresh everyone's memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEK20odBtE0


And that is the proof that Ganondorf already could use his magic in the same manner he did in the final battle. Ganondorf obviously used his piece of the Triforce more than Link or Zelda, probably because it was the Triforce of Power and granted him such. Link has never been shown to actually use the Triforce, therefore you must consider the names of each piece simply rather than a literal entire power fueled relic of each piece. The Triforce of Courage enables Link to have the courage to complete his journeys and in some instances defeat Ganon, however there have been times, such as with ALttP, that Link neither had nor needed use of the Triforce to accomplish this. It never kept him alive as it has done with Ganon over the years in the series.

Dark Link, the Mask Salesman has been evidenced to being able to travel other worlds. He was in OOT and MM and is probably the only character other than Link and the Skull Kid who can move between the worlds. He was assaulted by Skull kid in the Lost Woods in Hyrule, the Dark Tribe has been referenced in Hyrule for the most part, they have architecture that resembles Majora's Mask (The fused Shadows) what's to say that the one he is referencing isn't in Hyrule.

THe eye design of Majora and the fused shadows are put in a position that they are to alike. All the other resemblances have been in different positions and always have to many differences. However the fused Shadow eye is an exact replica of Majora's eye it is done in the same position, attempts the same size, the same squinting. It is to close to be a coincidence.

I remember that indecent clearly, and Ganondorf never used that entire blast of energy before (the one he uses in the final battle) which takes a lot of his time to conjure. Ganondorf was using his piece of the Triforce to grant him power, but he was overconfident.

Link was using the Triforce in order to stand against Ganon's power which as a child he could barely even go up against. Each Link is different when it comes to power and stature, making how they survive different every time. Link in OOT needed the Triforce to keep him alive in OOT against Ganondorf and Ganon (he regains all his hearts before the final battle.)

[Zemen]

you said that miyamoto made a timeline and that its outdated now. he placed TP 100 years after OoT. how is that outdated? TP is the newest game in the series so i dont understand how you can say his placement is outdated. and as dark link said, the only information we have to go on is the creators word. whether or not they have been wrong before thats the only conclusive evidence we have so we have to assume its correct until something CONCLUSIVE comes along to disprove it.

[ChargewithSword]

you said that miyamoto made a timeline and that its outdated now. he placed TP 100 years after OoT. how is that outdated? TP is the newest game in the series so i dont understand how you can say his placement is outdated. and as dark link said, the only information we have to go on is the creators word. whether or not they have been wrong before thats the only conclusive evidence we have so we have to assume its correct until something CONCLUSIVE comes along to disprove it.

BACK IN 1998 BUDDY! Back then he made a timeline for all the games, and he disclosed information about the timeline many times, even when WW was released he made claims on how the Timeline was ordered. And because he did not expect these games to have stories that contradicted his timeline and thus this kind of information isn't solid until the next Zelda in the Child Timeline is released.

[Zemen]

BACK IN 1998 BUDDY! Back then he made a timeline for all the games, and he disclosed information about the timeline many times, even when WW was released he made claims on how the Timeline was ordered. And because he did not expect these games to have stories that contradicted his timeline and thus this kind of information isn't solid until the next Zelda in the Child Timeline is released.

in my entire time being a theorist and talking with other theorists, no matter how many arguments ive been in, no matter how much i fought someone on a timeline, you are the only person i have ever spoken with who has conflicting views on TP.

this is kind of a moot topic/thread because regardless of how long after OoT this game takes place does not affect that it still comes after OoT on a timeline.

and the events and things that have happened in Hyrule do not make sense to take place only 60 or so years after OoT. there is movement of certain landmarks, there is the arrival of new cities, there is new land to explore. the map is obviously similar to OoT with a few changes. i dont think that these changes and new towns and landmarks could have been conjured up in only a matter of half a century. and the fact that there is this twilight realm and a mirror that leads to it. it just makes absolutely no sense to me for all of these events to occur in such a short amount of time. you can argue what you want but it doesnt make sense at all.

[ChargewithSword]

in my entire time being a theorist and talking with other theorists, no matter how many arguments ive been in, no matter how much i fought someone on a timeline, you are the only person i have ever spoken with who has conflicting views on TP.

this is kind of a moot topic/thread because regardless of how long after OoT this game takes place does not affect that it still comes after OoT on a timeline.

and the events and things that have happened in Hyrule do not make sense to take place only 60 or so years after OoT. there is movement of certain landmarks, there is the arrival of new cities, there is new land to explore. the map is obviously similar to OoT with a few changes. i dont think that these changes and new towns and landmarks could have been conjured up in only a matter of half a century. and the fact that there is this twilight realm and a mirror that leads to it. it just makes absolutely no sense to me for all of these events to occur in such a short amount of time. you can argue what you want but it doesnt make sense at all.

I'm very sure, that it was people like you who stated that changes in enviroment mean nothing in this game.
Ordon is outside of Hyrule, it had no buisness what so ever with it's event's. There are no new towns, one that was destroyed and another supposedly increased.
Do not talk as if your views on TP a moot, you are as much a speculator as me and stop acting so high and mighty. You can be just as wrong as me or just as right as me. At least I am open for debate, but you seem to be closed off to things that don't go your way. After a while I give up, but you have yet to do so. So stop bickering about how I do my way of firguring out the timeline and focus on making this an intellectual debate, not just contradicting.

And even though this means my other thread is now finished, if it's prepared to keep this alive then so be it.

Alttp is one game that links very well to this game (mostly due to the master sword, and the whole light and dark discussion.) The master sword is in a forest in that game and many things tend to add up, why is Zora's river to the north like it was in TP? And Death mountain is also to the north of the castle in TP (by a smidge) tell me. That game and this link up so well, yet why are the landmarks different? In every game the landmarks have been different, there is no indications of any of them ever having consistent landmarks except in name, and that is that.

Now, contradict that like we should but lay off of my questioning.

[Zemen]

I'm very sure, that it was people like you who stated that changes in enviroment mean nothing in this game.
Ordon is outside of Hyrule, it had no buisness what so ever with it's event's. There are no new towns, one that was destroyed and another supposedly increased.
Do not talk as if your views on TP a moot, you are as much a speculator as me and stop acting so high and mighty. You can be just as wrong as me or just as right as me. At least I am open for debate, but you seem to be closed off to things that don't go your way. After a while I give up, but you have yet to do so. So stop bickering about how I do my way of firguring out the timeline and focus on making this an intellectual debate, not just contradicting.

And even though this means my other thread is now finished, if it's prepared to keep this alive then so be it.

Alttp is one game that links very well to this game (mostly due to the master sword, and the whole light and dark discussion.) The master sword is in a forest in that game and many things tend to add up, why is Zora's river to the north like it was in TP? And Death mountain is also to the north of the castle in TP (by a smidge) tell me. That game and this link up so well, yet why are the landmarks different? In every game the landmarks have been different, there is no indications of any of them ever having consistent landmarks except in name, and that is that.

Now, contradict that like we should but lay off of my questioning.

not sure how im not debating "correctly"...you say im contradicting and not debating...bebating IS contradicting...

i did say geography doesnt really matter, but i was talking about land geography, not the fact that in a short time a new village popped up. based on what youre saying, if the maps are as much alike in OoT and TP as many think then the location of Ordon Village is right where the kokiri village was...

now i dont know how this would happen within 50-60 years. this means that the castle would have been moved which also would not realistically happen in that amount of time.

im not acting all high and mighty...im thinking logically. there is A LOT of things going on in TP...it just doesnt seem realistic that this all took place in 50 years..

and as i said, the creators have told us it comes 100 years after OoT. we have no reason to not believe them. youre the only one i know to ever try and contradict that. everyone else seems to believe that its a pretty solid FACT.

what the creators tell us isnt speculation..its fact, and thats what im basing my argument on is what the creators have told us so no, i am not speculating.

[ChargewithSword]

not sure how im not debating "correctly"...you say im contradicting and not debating...bebating IS contradicting...

i did say geography doesnt really matter, but i was talking about land geography, not the fact that in a short time a new village popped up. based on what youre saying, if the maps are as much alike in OoT and TP as many think then the location of Ordon Village is right where the kokiri village was...

now i dont know how this would happen within 50-60 years. this means that the castle would have been moved which also would not realistically happen in that amount of time.

im not acting all high and mighty...im thinking logically. there is A LOT of things going on in TP...it just doesnt seem realistic that this all took place in 50 years..

and as i said, the creators have told us it comes 100 years after OoT. we have no reason to not believe them. youre the only one i know to ever try and contradict that. everyone else seems to believe that its a pretty solid FACT.

what the creators tell us isnt speculation..its fact, and thats what im basing my argument on is what the creators have told us so no, i am not speculating.

I speak too of what Miyamoto said at least 10 years ago which was official facts at the time. He said a timeline like this
LOZ1> AOL> OOT> Alttp> LA
He said that and now it's currently thrown off into the wind because he didn't know of what would come after. As far as I'm concerned, unless another Zelda has been released that comes after TP, or the creators give an in-depth look into TP we are still in the dark. And until the next game, what you and I and Anouma says is mere speculation.

Geography doesn't change that much in 100 years either. Mountains can't change their positions and neither can deserts, which happened to move southward despite staying in the west, the lake happened to go the west huh? When in OOT it was in the south. The way the castle is and the geography from before all differs from OOT in such a way, it would have to be more than 100 years. No way can geography change positions like that in short of 300 years.

[Zemen]

I speak too of what Miyamoto said at least 10 years ago which was official facts at the time. He said a timeline like this
LOZ1> AOL> OOT> Alttp> LA
He said that and now it's currently thrown off into the wind because he didn't know of what would come after. As far as I'm concerned, unless another Zelda has been released that comes after TP, or the creators give an in-depth look into TP we are still in the dark. And until the next game, what you and I and Anouma says is mere speculation.

Geography doesn't change that much in 100 years either. Mountains can't change their positions and neither can deserts, which happened to move southward despite staying in the west, the lake happened to go the west huh? When in OOT it was in the south. The way the castle is and the geography from before all differs from OOT in such a way, it would have to be more than 100 years. No way can geography change positions like that in short of 300 years.

i dont recall Miyamoto EVER saying that AoL and LoZ came before OoT. when OoT came out he specifically said it was the first game in the timeline so im not sure where you got that info from.

[ChargewithSword]

i dont recall Miyamoto EVER saying that AoL and LoZ came before OoT. when OoT came out he specifically said it was the first game in the timeline so im not sure where you got that info from.

That still doesn't change the fact that Miyamoto's information was wrong because of newly released games. And until the next Zelda comes out, Anouma is still just speculating.

[LoZfan]

Some timelines say that ooT came first.. then mm... Possibly, Tp came in third... this show how The ooT/MM Link Grew up out of/ if not a part of Hyrule. During that time.. Gannondorf came back and got caught by the sages.. everyone still has the triforces they had in oOT.. so yeah.. that explains why Ganondorf has ages only 20 years.. cuz everyone else has too.. savvy

[MrMosley]

That still doesn't change the fact that Miyamoto's information was wrong because of newly released games. And until the next Zelda comes out, Anouma is still just speculating.

The question is, why would a guy who made a game "speculate" about it? I think if I made a game series, I would be pretty clear on what I was doing and what connections it made (if any) with its predecesors. Miyamoto said the first game was OoT back in 1998, yes, but since, Aonuma has also talked about WW taking place 100 years after OoT, and I'm pretty sure, thought I don't recall when or where I read it, that TP also takes place 100 years after OoT. Zemen isn't talking about 1998, he is talking about 2006, when new reports on the placement of games have been released by Aonuma. And like I said, you can't say the one who made the thing is speculating.

[ChargewithSword]

The question is, why would a guy who made a game "speculate" about it? I think if I made a game series, I would be pretty clear on what I was doing and what connections it made (if any) with its predecesors. Miyamoto said the first game was OoT back in 1998, yes, but since, Aonuma has also talked about WW taking place 100 years after OoT, and I'm pretty sure, thought I don't recall when or where I read it, that TP also takes place 100 years after OoT. Zemen isn't talking about 1998, he is talking about 2006, when new reports on the placement of games have been released by Aonuma. And like I said, you can't say the one who made the thing is speculating.

Remember that other companies have also released Zelda games (capcom) and Nintendo doesn't have all the info about their storylines (Ex: FSA and MC) so unless the next Zelda game is revealed, they are in the dark for what the future may hold.

[Zemen]

Remember that other companies have also released Zelda games (capcom) and Nintendo doesn't have all the info about their storylines (Ex: FSA and MC) so unless the next Zelda game is revealed, they are in the dark for what the future may hold.

just because a different company funded the game doesnt mean that miyamoto and aonuma (?) didnt work on it. they still worked on they just had someone else paying the bills. based on what you just said, that would mean the games are not canon just because they are capcom games. this is not the case because those games do make connections with other games whether you like it or not. also, the remake of ALTTP has some aspects of FS tied into it and FSA was then created to be a prequel to ALTTP which means that the non capcom game was specifically remade to connect to a capcom series.

youre only reason not to believe the creators is the fact that there will be future games.

the point is that what the creators say is FACT until a game is created that changes that fact. but for now, it IS fact.

[Alter]

Recently in my "Link's Father" thread, I had brought up a question that somewhat challenges Anouma's (sp) claim of Twilight Princess being at least 100 years after OOT.

Why are OOT Link and Zelda dead, but not Ganondorf?

Apparently since it seems to be accepted that the Hero's Spirit is Link's father and OOT Link. Why is he dead and an old adult at that yet Ganondorf looks as if he has only aged at least 20 years from his child timeline appearance.

Before anyone goes saying "The Triforce of Power stilled his age." Let me ask something. If Ganondorf had the Triforce of power for 100 years, why is Aribiter Grounds not a big piece of rubble right now? Apparently this fact challenges the theory of how TP could be 100 years after OOT. I don't have answers, but I only have a suggestion that TP could probably be at least 50-60 years after OOT a reasonable amount of time to pass, but still questionable.

I believe that this is up for a debate.

Speaking of which, isn't a new Gerudo male supposed to be born every 100 years? Interesting how that hasn't come into play.

Oh, and you really should give a source of Anouma's statement.

[Zemen]

Speaking of which, isn't a new Gerudo male supposed to be born every 100 years? Interesting how that hasn't come into play.

Oh, and you really should give a source of Anouma's statement.

why there isnt a new gerudo male is easily answered. OoT is the only game that shows the Gerudo (with the exception of MM but that doesnt take place long after OoT).

if there are no Gerudo in other games then obviously there wont be a new male.

[Alter]

why there isnt a new gerudo male is easily answered. OoT is the only game that shows the Gerudo (with the exception of MM but that doesnt take place long after OoT).

if there are no Gerudo in other games then obviously there wont be a new male.

Ahhh... ok, I see. But why would Ganondorf be carried over if the Gerudo aren't? It's kinda confusing, but I think I understand your point.

[MrMosley]

Ahhh... ok, I see. But why would Ganondorf be carried over if the Gerudo aren't? It's kinda confusing, but I think I understand your point.

Because Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power, which keeps him alive. That is how it is the same Ganon/Ganondorf in every Zelda title instead of a new generation like there are with most Zeldas and Links throughout the games. There's also the whole Ganon bein reincarnated theory but thats a different story. Ganondorf (human) stayed around because of the Triforce.

[ChargewithSword]

Because Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power, which keeps him alive. That is how it is the same Ganon/Ganondorf in every Zelda title instead of a new generation like there are with most Zeldas and Links throughout the games. There's also the whole Ganon bein reincarnated theory but thats a different story. Ganondorf (human) stayed around because of the Triforce.

But we killed him in LOZ when he had the Triforce of Power. I know that the game is old but, it still doesn't change the fact that we actually killed the bearer of the Triforce of Power.

As seeing that I have been thrown at a wall. I give up graciously and say that thanks to Dark_Link for the debate, and Zemen you need to act less arrogant. (I act it to but I don't go around dismissing things as if I'm always right.)

[Durion]

I think that it is because Ganondorf is meant to be Immortal, Usually after most games he is just locked back up isn't, Also why would the Arbiter's Ground be in ruins, I can't remember anything about that area in OoT.

[MrMosley]

But we killed him in LOZ when he had the Triforce of Power. I know that the game is old but, it still doesn't change the fact that we actually killed the bearer of the Triforce of Power.

Well you can look at it simply, or in detail. If you take it simply, those older games didn't have a very developed storyline.

Looking at things in detail, LoZ is not the only game that Ganon or Ganondorf has been killed while bearing the ToP. The two weapons that have shown to be able to defeat and kill Ganon/dorf in any Zelda title has been the Master Sword and the Silver Arrows. In LoZ, the Silver Arrows were used to destroy him, even with his possession of the ToP, and in ALttP they were used again to destroy him, even though he did not bear the ToP, he had the entire Triforce at his disposal apparently in the back room of the Pyramid.

Then we have the newer game that is Twilight Princess. Once again, Ganondorf had possession of the ToP, and by the looks of things, died. My guess as to how this happend was the prolonged impalation of the Master Sword. Link in OoT merely stabs Ganon for a brief moment, and he is able to survive with the ToP intact. However in TP, Link stabs Ganondorf straight through the guts, leaving the sword there to apparently fester up all of Ganondorf's evil powers, as well as pulling the ToP from him (as it is shown to loose its glow on his hand).

My point being, the ToP keeps Ganondorf alive as long as neither of these two weapons are used to drain him of his power. That is why he came back in WW. As for his inclusion in other games, well thats all left up to what theories one has and how they view the timeline. Personally, I see Ganondorf dying at the end of TP, losing the ToP, and sometime later being revived as Ganon. That is when he would go to the Sacred Realm for a second time to claim the Triforce, when he is sealed within it, turning it into the Dark World (events of ALttP).

Now this theory is contradicted by the widely known story that ALttP directly talks about Ganondorf (human) going into the Golden Land and being transformed into Ganon along with it whenever he made his wish. But, that leaves a big gap open from TP to ALttP as to how Ganondorf would have survived and retained his human form.