Link's Death

[Josh]

So in the shoutbox, me and Axle we're talking about stuff, and I brought up how much it confused me about how Koume and Kotake were alive in Majora's Mask even though they were killed in Ocarina of Time. That led me to some crazy assumption of what if Link actually died after Ocarina of Time for some strange reason, and Termina is either some corrupt Heaven or Hell. And, the death of him could either be that he died for reasons unknown, or Skull Kid actually killed him when he attacked him in the Forest and/or turned him into the Deku.

So, tell me everything that's wrong with this.

[Axle the Beast]

Well, this isn't really something wrong with it... but it is interesting as Link turns into Deku Link, who seemed to kinda be already dead before you got there (you know, the Deku Butler's son?) I don't really know what that would mean, though. XD

Oh, here's something wrong: If Termina is some kind of afterlife, how is it that there are ghosts in Ikana as well as other places? (Like Darmani, Kamaro...)

[timewarp]

So in the shoutbox, me and Axle we're talking about stuff, and I brought up how much it confused me about how Koume and Kotake were alive in Majora's Mask even though they were killed in Ocarina of Time. That led me to some crazy assumption of what if Link actually died after Ocarina of Time for some strange reason, and Termina is either some corrupt Heaven or Hell. And, the death of him could either be that he died for reasons unknown, or Skull Kid actually killed him when he attacked him in the Forest and/or turned him into the Deku.

So, tell me everything that's wrong with this.
Koume and Kotake were killed in the adult timeline.

[Josh]

Oh, here's something wrong: If Termina is some kind of afterlife, how is it that there are ghosts in Ikana as well as other places? (Like Darmani, Kamaro...)

They died again. Trust me, it could happen.


Koume and Kotake were killed in the adult timeline.

But does that really even matter? Because they were killed in the Beginning of both timelines supposedly, and what would that mean for the child timeline then?

[timewarp]

They died again. Trust me, it could happen.



But does that really even matter? Because they were killed in the Beginning of both timelines supposedly, and what would that mean for the child timeline then?

What do you mean? They were killed at the end of the Spirit Temple by Adult Link. They were obviously alive when Link is a child, as they are there to capture Nabooru. That means in the child timeline, and subsequently in Majora's Mask, Link had never killed them.

[Josh]

Oh shat I think you're right. Okay then.

Anything else besides that major thing wrong with this thread?

[Dr.Cortex]

interesting theory, it actually sounds plausible. I would think it would be more likely to be some sort of hell not heaven.

[Judai]

Then why is a moon crashing down and the giants save the people if it's the afterlife. It's just another dimension is all. Link tumbled into another dimension.

[Amelie]

I dont think Link died. I guess it is possible but then again I dont know. I think I agree with Judai ^^


It is a interesting idea though ^^

[Zemen]

as stated before, link doesnt die. kotake and koume arent dead in the child timeline. link killed them as an adult, so when he goes back in time to his childhood, they are not dead. also, we are supposed to assume that when link returns to his childhood, he tells the royal family of ganondorfs plans so they stop him before he can do anything. this would mean that kotake and koume never worked for ganondorf, IMO, so that would explain why they A: dont recognize link or try to attack link when they meet him in MM and B: why they are not evil at all in MM.

[Axle the Beast]

Dang! There we go, Josh! I didn't think of that! Koume and Kotake died in the adult timeline, of course!

Now it does make sense that they're in Termina. XD

[Midna666]

The Koume and Kotake in MM are not the same as the Koume and Kotake in OOT.
And Link did not die.

[blackice_cc]

Wait a minute here. How could Kotake and Koume just all of the sudden end up in Termina? Did they go through the portal? I think not. In MM, as I'm sure we've all noticed, there are plenty of character that are a lot like ones in OoT. Kotake and Koume are the only ones with the exact same name as in OoT, but that doesn't mean they're the same ones. I mean, something with them has changed, as they're not evil. So I'd just say Termina is another dimension, and that it's got some of the same people. Probably some of you have heard of this, because it comes up in fiction books a bit (especially Terry Pratchett) where for every choice you make, there is an alternate world where you made a different choice? Well, Termina could be sort of like that; people made different choices, which made it completely different from Hyrule.

[Axle the Beast]

Wait a minute here. How could Kotake and Koume just all of the sudden end up in Termina? Did they go through the portal? I think not. In MM, as I'm sure we've all noticed, there are plenty of character that are a lot like ones in OoT. Kotake and Koume are the only ones with the exact same name as in OoT, but that doesn't mean they're the same ones. I mean, something with them has changed, as they're not evil. So I'd just say Termina is another dimension, and that it's got some of the same people. Probably some of you have heard of this, because it comes up in fiction books a bit (especially Terry Pratchett) where for every choice you make, there is an alternate world where you made a different choice? Well, Termina could be sort of like that; people made different choices, which made it completely different from Hyrule.
I personally find it unlikely that Termina is an alternate dimension. There has never been any real evidence supporting that theory, or at least not that I can find.

Yeah, a lot of the characters share the same models from OoT, but I'm pretty darn sure they were just recycling resources. Few of the characters in MM even share the same name (with a few exceptions, but they could have just decided to keep the name for no particular reason.)

Anyway, just my opinion.

[Midna666]

Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma have said that Termina is a alternate dimesion.
So get over it people.

[Josh]

Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma have said that Termina is a alternate dimesion.
So get over it people.


Where.

And tons of people ignore what would be evidence like that.

[MrMosley]

Its more acceptible to ask why they are alive in the Oracle games rather than Majora's Mask, because MM dosen't for sure contain all of the same characters and such. Like the Happy Mask Salesman is the same HMS that was in Ocarina obviously. And I know Koume and Kotake do keep their respective names in this game, but I mean they run a magic shop and a boat ride in Termina. In Hyrule, they are Magic Witches who are crazy about Ganon and want him to rule the world.

So since I believe Termina to be an alternate/parallel world to that of the one containing Hyrule, it is more likely that the Koume and Kotake in MM are the alternate/parallel versions of those characters in the world containing Hyrule.

Anyway, what some others said about Link killing them in the Adult Timeline would be correct. Koume and Kotake were never killed in the child timeline, therefore they are still around. So whether they left and went to Termina to sale magic potions or that was just their alternate versions, they still were not dead during this time.

[Welbanks]

Where.

And tons of people ignore what would be evidence like that.

Im not sure where personally where he said that, but it is true, it says so in the manual,

"His pursuit of the villain led him into the strange, parallel word of Termia, where he found his fate tied to its impending doom..."

[Skull_Kid]

But what is more confusing is why the parallel version of the Twinrova are also named Kotake and Koume... They are the ONLY mirrored characters that retain the name, if you pay attention to the game... Are they really counterparts, or Twinrova are nice in Termina and know how to travel there?

[Zemen]

But what is more confusing is why the parallel version of the Twinrova are also named Kotake and Koume... They are the ONLY mirrored characters that retain the name, if you pay attention to the game... Are they really counterparts, or Twinrova are nice in Termina and know how to travel there?

i HIGHLY doubt that they are counterparts. they look exactly the same as the ones from hyrule. AND its the same skull kid, link and happy mask salesman so why wouldnt it be the same kotake and koume? it wouldnt make any sense.

this is my logic. link was able to tell the royal family about his adventures in OoT so that they could stop ganondorf before he could do any major damage. because of this, i believe that koume and kotake never worked for ganondorf so they never became evil. they also seemed like goofy characters so maybe they just said to themselves "the whole evil thing isnt working out, lets open a potion/cruise shop somewhere."

also, if you notice that when you beat them in OoT, they have halos above their heads and they are rising up. this implies they are going to heaven. not sure if that has any meaning, but if it does that means that they are not evil. for all we know, the only reason they fight link is because they HAVE to because ganondorf is their king regardless of if they are evil or not.

[Skull_Kid]

But keep in mind that taht was in the adult Timeline.. also, it doens't make much sense, since they aren't major characters of Majora's Mask, like Skull Kid, Link or The Mask Salesman...
I guess it is just another mistery

[blackice_cc]

i HIGHLY doubt that they are counterparts. they look exactly the same as the ones from hyrule. AND its the same skull kid, link and happy mask salesman so why wouldnt it be the same kotake and koume? it wouldnt make any sense.

this is my logic. link was able to tell the royal family about his adventures in OoT so that they could stop ganondorf before he could do any major damage. because of this, i believe that koume and kotake never worked for ganondorf so they never became evil. they also seemed like goofy characters so maybe they just said to themselves "the whole evil thing isnt working out, lets open a potion/cruise shop somewhere."

also, if you notice that when you beat them in OoT, they have halos above their heads and they are rising up. this implies they are going to heaven. not sure if that has any meaning, but if it does that means that they are not evil. for all we know, the only reason they fight link is because they HAVE to because ganondorf is their king regardless of if they are evil or not.

Just because they look exactly the same doesn't mean they are the same. Romani looks exactly like young Malon, but she's not Malon. The Gorman brothers look like Gorman does in OoT, but neither of them are the same Gorman.

And one of the Twinrova was Ganondorf's mother you know, so he wasn't just their king.

But yeah, like SK was saying, the Twinrova die and float upward with halos above their heads in the Adult Timeline. They are most likely still alive in the Child Timeline, in which MM occurs.

And SK, that's "mystery" not "mistery" =D.

[Skull_Kid]

I know, i was just goofing with words, i love doing that... Anyways, they are still funny in the adult timeline, as well as in Termina:D... I didn't like'em in OoX

[Onilink89]

The most basic and common explaination would be, Termina is some sort of parallel dimension.

[Skull_Kid]

And it is, or so was stated by Myamoto... Also, do you possibly think that the Great Sea featured in PH is the Adult Timeline version of termina?it is not that farfetched, i guess

[Onilink89]

And it is, or so was stated by Myamoto... Also, do you possibly think that the Great Sea featured in PH is the Adult Timeline version of termina?it is not that farfetched, i guess

Yeah maybe, but there is no single clue to assume that just because its a other dimension.
So i think thats its just a whole other dimension.

But hey, i didn 't knew Miyamoto stated that? Cool seems i guessed it right.

[timewarp]

i HIGHLY doubt that they are counterparts. they look exactly the same as the ones from hyrule. AND its the same skull kid, link and happy mask salesman so why wouldnt it be the same kotake and koume? it wouldnt make any sense.

this is my logic. link was able to tell the royal family about his adventures in OoT so that they could stop ganondorf before he could do any major damage. because of this, i believe that koume and kotake never worked for ganondorf so they never became evil. they also seemed like goofy characters so maybe they just said to themselves "the whole evil thing isnt working out, lets open a potion/cruise shop somewhere."

also, if you notice that when you beat them in OoT, they have halos above their heads and they are rising up. this implies they are going to heaven. not sure if that has any meaning, but if it does that means that they are not evil. for all we know, the only reason they fight link is because they HAVE to because ganondorf is their king regardless of if they are evil or not.
Koume and Kotake are Ganondorf's surrogate mothers. They were with him from the start, even in the child timeline, as demonstrated when they captured Nabooru. Additionally, there is no evidence for heaven or hell in the Zelda Universe at all. The halos over their heads only imply death.

[Zemen]

But keep in mind that taht was in the adult Timeline.. also, it doens't make much sense, since they aren't major characters of Majora's Mask, like Skull Kid, Link or The Mask Salesman...
I guess it is just another mistery

they actually kind of are important to the game in their own way. not sure which is which so ill just guess on this next part. koume is hurt in the woods so you NEED kotakes medicine to go help her. when you help koume, she is able to go back to the cruise shop to give you a cruise to a place that you would not be able to go to otherwise. if this never happened you would never progress in the game, thus they are VERY important to the game regardless of how major their role is.


Just because they look exactly the same doesn't mean they are the same. Romani looks exactly like young Malon, but she's not Malon. The Gorman brothers look like Gorman does in OoT, but neither of them are the same Gorman.

And one of the Twinrova was Ganondorf's mother you know, so he wasn't just their king.

But yeah, like SK was saying, the Twinrova die and float upward with halos above their heads in the Adult Timeline. They are most likely still alive in the Child Timeline, in which MM occurs.

And SK, that's "mystery" not "mistery" =D.

romani may look the same but she has a completely different name. there is a HUGE difference between using a similar look for a character but a different name than there is using the same look and the same name but its apparently not the same character. the only character in the entire series that has ever happened with is Link and Zelda, but its just a different time not a different dimension.

the fact that there are 3 other characters who are the same characters from OoT as in MM makes me believe that nintendo/miyamoto wouldnt make parallel characters with the same name and look. it makes no sense, there is absolutely no proof to it.


And it is, or so was stated by Myamoto... Also, do you possibly think that the Great Sea featured in PH is the Adult Timeline version of termina?it is not that farfetched, i guess

the land that Link is in in PH is a dream, just like kohelant island (not sure of the spelling) is in LA. Link wakes up to find that only he and Tetra have memory of the adventure that had taken place and know it happened because link still had the phantom hourglass, just like in LA when he wakes up he sees the wind fish and he knows that it was a dream but it really happened. its not termina, its a dream world.

[Midna666]

Again I say that the Koume and Kotake in MM are not the same as the Koume and Kotake in OOT.
Just because they have the same names does not mean that they are the same.
Also Dampe has the same name in OOT and MM,and they are both grave diggers,but they are not the same person.

[blackice_cc]

Again I say that the Koume and Kotake in MM are not the same as the Koume and Kotake in OOT.
Just because they have the same names does not mean that they are the same.
Also Dampe has the same name in OOT and MM,and they are both grave diggers,but they are not the same person.

Yeah, you're right. Kotake and Koume are not the only one with the exact same name. Though Dampe died, his spirit still inhabited the labyrinth underneath the grave, so he couldn't have gone to Termina because he died.
And also, the Carpenters are the same, the Cucco gut in Romani Ranch is the same guy that hangs out near the tree in Kakariko at night (OoT) etc. I'm sure there are others, but I can't think of any now.

[Zemen]

Again I say that the Koume and Kotake in MM are not the same as the Koume and Kotake in OOT.
Just because they have the same names does not mean that they are the same.
Also Dampe has the same name in OOT and MM,and they are both grave diggers,but they are not the same person.

umm im pretty sure that dampe is only dead in the adult timeline. he was alive in the child timeline when you are kid link and he is dead when you are adult link but MM is on the child timeline which means that dampe wouldnt be dead which means it is possible that its the same dampe.


Yeah, you're right. Kotake and Koume are not the only one with the exact same name. Though Dampe died, his spirit still inhabited the labyrinth underneath the grave, so he couldn't have gone to Termina because he died.
And also, the Carpenters are the same, the Cucco gut in Romani Ranch is the same guy that hangs out near the tree in Kakariko at night (OoT) etc. I'm sure there are others, but I can't think of any now.

it is very possible that others found a way to termina. it makes no sense that there are many characters from hyrule with the same name and then there are characters who have the same EXACT name, look and personality but are not the same people from hyrule. my guess is that the ones with the same name and obviously the same look are the same person and the similar ones with different names would be parallel characters. and here is another question...why are there only parallel characters for a handful of the characters but not for all of them? it makes no sense. just because they are similar does not mean they are parallel people. it could just be that the creators used the same designs (which they obviously did for many aspects of the game) and changed a few things so they werent the exact same people and decided to bring back some characters. there is no in game quotes or substantial evidence to prove that they are parallel versions of koume and kotake so you cant just say that you know for a fact that they are parallel characters.

[blackice_cc]

it is very possible that others found a way to termina. it makes no sense that there are many characters from hyrule with the same name and then there are characters who have the same EXACT name, look and personality but are not the same people from hyrule. my guess is that the ones with the same name and obviously the same look are the same person and the similar ones with different names would be parallel characters. and here is another question...why are there only parallel characters for a handful of the characters but not for all of them? it makes no sense. just because they are similar does not mean they are parallel people. it could just be that the creators used the same designs (which they obviously did for many aspects of the game) and changed a few things so they werent the exact same people and decided to bring back some characters. there is no in game quotes or substantial evidence to prove that they are parallel versions of koume and kotake so you cant just say that you know for a fact that they are parallel characters.

No, I don't know for a fact that they're just parallel characters, but neither do you know for a fact that they aren't. It's very possible that Nintendo just decided to rehash a bunch of characters on the basis that this is a parallel dimension, but also put in fresh characters because same old same old would be boring. But that's not a very exciting theory, so here's another possibility.
Maybe when Termina and Hyrule were created, they were exactly the same with the exact same places and exact same life forms. But as they aged, the people on each world made different choices than the ones on the other world. For example, maybe these people decided to have their town HERE and not THERE, but the people on the other spot made the town somewhere else, etc etc. That could make them a lot different while staying a bit the same.

[Zemen]

No, I don't know for a fact that they're just parallel characters, but neither do you know for a fact that they aren't. It's very possible that Nintendo just decided to rehash a bunch of characters on the basis that this is a parallel dimension, but also put in fresh characters because same old same old would be boring. But that's not a very exciting theory, so here's another possibility.
Maybe when Termina and Hyrule were created, they were exactly the same with the exact same places and exact same life forms. But as they aged, the people on each world made different choices than the ones on the other world. For example, maybe these people decided to have their town HERE and not THERE, but the people on the other spot made the town somewhere else, etc etc. That could make them a lot different while staying a bit the same.

i never said i know for a fact that they are. all i said was that it is more likely they arent just parallel characters. you and that other guy are the ones who keep saying "its a prallel version of koume and kotake." neither of you ever once said it was your opinion. you stated it like it was a fact and no one else could be right with any other theory.

[Midna666]

I think that people are putting too much focus on Koume and Kotake.
And Miyamato said that Termina is a alternate dimension.

[Skull_Kid]

I think that you are making very short posts... anyways, i think that Zelda games are full of small details that turn out big, and, this one screams: "I'M IMPORTANT!", for some reason they a) traveled to Termina and Got nice; b)their counterparts for some reason have the same names... i don't think it was not on purpose

[Zemen]

I think that you are making very short posts... anyways, i think that Zelda games are full of small details that turn out big, and, this one screams: "I'M IMPORTANT!", for some reason they a) traveled to Termina and Got nice; b)their counterparts for some reason have the same names... i don't think it was not on purpose

i think youre WAY overthinking something that doesnt matter at all...

the only thing they did in the game was run a potion shop and run a cruise. they were not at all important otherwise. so if this was something SUPER important, i think they would have had something more in the game... seeing as how there is no sequel to MM (except TP if you count that) and there probably never will be because the Zelda series has yet to make a sequel of a sequel (unless you count the REALLY old games), i dont think that this is important at all. Koume and Kotake were witches. who better to run a potion shop than a witch? miyamoto says "we should have a potion shop but who should run it?" then he says to himself "witches make potions and the only witches in the series are koume and kotake so lets use them."

miyamoto has said himself that they make the game with quality in mind more than a timeline or it connecting to another zelda game. they focus more on the puzzle and gameplay than they do on trying to make it fit perfectly in a timeline. its koume and kotake. get over it.

[blackice_cc]

i think youre WAY overthinking something that doesnt matter at all...

the only thing they did in the game was run a potion shop and run a cruise. they were not at all important otherwise. so if this was something SUPER important, i think they would have had something more in the game... seeing as how there is no sequel to MM (except TP if you count that) and there probably never will be because the Zelda series has yet to make a sequel of a sequel (unless you count the REALLY old games), i dont think that this is important at all. Koume and Kotake were witches. who better to run a potion shop than a witch? miyamoto says "we should have a potion shop but who should run it?" then he says to himself "witches make potions and the only witches in the series are koume and kotake so lets use them."

miyamoto has said himself that they make the game with quality in mind more than a timeline or it connecting to another zelda game. they focus more on the puzzle and gameplay than they do on trying to make it fit perfectly in a timeline. its koume and kotake. get over it.

Now you're the one saying that as if you know for sure that it's a fact, and not just your opinion. I never saw anything you said stating that "it's just my opinion" either, so I don't think you can tell me off for acting as if only I knew what I was saying, when I clearly was not acting that way.
Anyways, I think this just goes to a matter of opinion, and I don't think there's much left to discuss. We've stated our views, and neither of us agree with the other.

[Zemen]

Now you're the one saying that as if you know for sure that it's a fact, and not just your opinion. I never saw anything you said stating that "it's just my opinion" either, so I don't think you can tell me off for acting as if only I knew what I was saying, when I clearly was not acting that way.
Anyways, I think this just goes to a matter of opinion, and I don't think there's much left to discuss. We've stated our views, and neither of us agree with the other.

go back and read my posts. im pretty sure each one of them says "my guess is.." or "i think..." which means that im not stating a fact but my own opinion.

also, in my last post i said its koume and kotake. that is a fact regardless of if they are parallel or not so technically i did state a fact. also, i said they are not at all important to MM except for potions and a one time cruise which is also a fact. so everything i state that i didnt say "i think" or "i guess" is a fact. have a nice day.

[Bluelink6]

Link maybe should die. Think....he's always the hero. A new hero might be nice.

[Skull_Kid]

Another character that retained his name was Guru guru, the windmill man, and here's a paradox created by that fact:

A time paradox is created in Ocarina of Time. According to Guru Guru, Link played the Song of Storms as a child to speed up the windmill, yet Link is taught the song by Guru Guru. Because of this, it is not clear exactly how Link originally learned the song, to have played it to Guru Guru in the first place.


So, i think this is more important than the fact about Kotake and Koume

[timewarp]

Another character that retained his name was Guru guru, the windmill man, and here's a paradox created by that fact:

A time paradox is created in Ocarina of Time. According to Guru Guru, Link played the Song of Storms as a child to speed up the windmill, yet Link is taught the song by Guru Guru. Because of this, it is not clear exactly how Link originally learned the song, to have played it to Guru Guru in the first place.


So, i think this is more important than the fact about Kotake and Koume

It's plausible that someone other than Link came to the windmill with an ocarina between the child and adult timelines, and played the song. At least, that's the most simple solution to the paradox that I can think of.

[Skull_Kid]

He implies that was Link who played the Ocarina, so how do yuo explain that?

[MrMosley]

Basically I never thought it was a huge deal about Guru Guru. He tells Link about the kid coming by and playing the song in the Windmill probably because that is what happened. I know, it was indeed before Link actually learned the song to go back in time and play it, but whos to say that destiny dosen't play a part? Link was obviously destined to save Hyrule, so a lot of smaller things could have just as well happened such as this incident. Link was destined to learn the song or else he couldn't have eventually saved Hyrule. Therefore, it was inevitable for him to play it in the windmill as a child. It was probably already pre-written in time.

[Skull_Kid]

In MM Guru Guru teaches him the song, and in OoT Link plays it... here's the paradox created... also, that demonstrates that the Guru Guru has the ability to travel to Termina and Hyrule freely

[blackice_cc]

In MM Guru Guru teaches him the song, and in OoT Link plays it... here's the paradox created... also, that demonstrates that the Guru Guru has the ability to travel to Termina and Hyrule freely

Not true. In MM, one of the composer brothers (Sharp or Flat, whichever one wasn't trying to kill you) teach you the song of storms. In OoT, Guru Guru teaches you the song as Adult Link before you go back and play it to him as Young Link. It's sort of like, Link was going to play the Song of Storms to Guru Guru no-matter-what after he learns it from Guru Guru in the future, because if he hadn't then he wouldn't know it. To actually grasp the idea, we'd have to experiment with time traveling =D.

[Welbanks]

Not true. In MM, one of the composer brothers (Sharp or Flat, whichever one wasn't trying to kill you) teach you the song of storms. In OoT, Guru Guru teaches you the song as Adult Link before you go back and play it to him as Young Link. It's sort of like, Link was going to play the Song of Storms to Guru Guru no-matter-what after he learns it from Guru Guru in the future, because if he hadn't then he wouldn't know it. To actually grasp the idea, we'd have to experiment with time traveling =D.


Exactly.
A big thing about time paradoxes is that you cant really explain it.
Or at least, until we can travel through time... (never)

[MrMosley]

A time paradox is not a very hard thing to explain or understand. It is simply an erase of events which have already been written in time. Such as in the Metal Gear Solid games. For those who have played them, MGS 1 and 2 take place in a sequel-like order. Part 2 takes place after part 1. But part 3 takes place before either of them, many years before part 1 in fact. In part 3, you play as Naked Snake, the guy who eventually becomes "Big Boss", who is the one cloned to create the three separate "Snakes" present in part 1 and 2 (and those older NES titles as well). In MGS 1 and 2, you play as Solid Snake, the main enemy is Liquid Snake, and in part 2, the last enemy is the third, Solidus Snake. All of these were the clones created by cloning Naked Snake, the original. If you die during gameplay of part 3 and let the Game Over screen set for a minute, the letters change to the words "Time Paradox", signifying that by Naked Snake dying, the three who create all of the events in later titles never exist.

I think the Zelda series takes a different approach to time travel (in most aspects) than it is really considered. The movie "Back to the Future" gives a more reasonable approach to time travel, which is if you do something in the past, it has an affect on the future; however that future is not created without something first taking place in the past to cause it to be created.

The Zelda series, at least in this example with Guru Guru and the windmill, uses destiny as its base. As I said in my previous post, Link was destined to save Hyrule. He had to learn the Song of Storms to drain the well, thus getting in it, acquiring the Lens of Truth, going on to use it to complete the Shadow Temple, then getting the Shadow Medallion, which of course is a key aspect in his quest to save Hyrule. All of this was pre-determined, just like many believe that God (in Christianity), knows everything that is going to happen. So it is unlike reasonable time travel, and different from the time travel we see in "Back to the Future". If it followed those respective rules, Link would have no definite destiny, and would have had to learn the song some time in the past, not the future, in order to piss Guru Guru off by playing it at the windmill.

[Josh16k]

wow.... this is a really big discussion over a little thing... Firstly the link in MM is the same as the one in OoT, Also Kotake and Koume could have just traveled to terminia just as link did. and maybe he did warn the royal family about ganondorf thusly Kotake and Koume were just potion sales ladies as they probably wanted to be....(but that doesn't explain the spirit temple...)but the point is LINK TRAVELED TO TERMINIA.... that is all... heres a link to the opening vid saying that link was going on a PERSONAL JOURNEY....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1_B9P2b2jg



Oh yeah and the whole point to the thread... i dont think link died until after MM along with every one else that drowned in the sea.... HINT: wind waker...

[Dark Link '98]

Weeell, seeing as those two old hags were evil incarnate, they couldn't have continued to the Sacred Realm. They could've been sent back down to Hyrule and continued living for centuries...there's another part to that, but I won't get into it, because Shadow Link+time line=brain tumors. You'll have to ask for a PM if you want reasons. sorry for the inconvenience.

[DekuNut]

I have something no one brought up yet:
KOUME AND KOTAKE ARE GANONDORF'S MOTHERS. (In thir combined Twinrova state)
THEY are the ones who taught Ganondorf that violenc is the answer. THEY serve him as best they could...
Even giving their lives for him after OoX.
They could not be just two potion-makers if they taught Ganon to be evil (although Ganondorf himself decided to invade Hyrule)

[Ganondork]

http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Axle the Beast http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?p=27892#post27892)
Oh, here's something wrong: If Termina is some kind of afterlife, how is it that there are ghosts in Ikana as well as other places? (Like Darmani, Kamaro...)
They died again. Trust me, it could happen.



http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by timewarp http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?p=27901#post27901)
Koume and Kotake were killed in the adult timeline.



But does that really even matter? Because they were killed in the Beginning of both timelines supposedly, and what would that mean for the child timeline then?
It does matter. In the adult timeline it happens. But you go to Termina as a kid, not an adult. 7 years prior to be exact. 7 years prior to their deaths.

[the walrus cat]

Koume and Kotake probably went into hiding after Ganondorf's plans were revealed on the Child timeline. Seeing as they're mages, I'd assume they would have a much easier time finding Termina than any other character. So perhaps they decided to start a potion shop in the swamp and avoid any negative attention.

[DekuNut]

But wouldn't they recognize him? After all, they had to have seen him once or twice.

[Oni Cucco]

1.-Koume and Kotake in MM arent the same in OoT, look all the other characters, remember we are in termina

2.-Koume and Kotake are killed in the Adult time line, while MM is in the child time line

[DearDexter]

I can't seem to recall when the game tells us that Kokume and Kotake are Ganondorf's mother(s)... could someone please help me out here?

[the walrus cat]

I can't seem to recall when the game tells us that Kokume and Kotake are Ganondorf's mother(s)... could someone please help me out here?
I thought it was explained in OoT that Koume and Kotake were Ganondorf's surrogate mother's, however I am not remembering quite what part of the game this was stated... Could someone please confirm where it said this (and what game)?

[Master Sword13]

I thought it was explained in OoT that Koume and Kotake were Ganondorf's surrogate mother's, however I am not remembering quite what part of the game this was stated... Could someone please confirm where it said this (and what game)?

I'm pretty sure that Nabooru's second in command (or Nabooru, I can't remember), told you that Koume and Kotake were Ganondorf's CARETAKERS. Not mothers exactly. Yes, they acted like mothers, or mother as twinrova, but they weren't' Ganondorf's mothers genetically. Because honestly, that'd be weird.

I was actually thinking about this topic the other day. Why Koume and Kotake didn't attack Link in Termina. Originally, I thought it was just an alternate dimension. But when I thought about it yesterday I considered something: They have INCREDIBLE magical ability. Who's to say they just flew there on their brooms? Maybe they even ORIGINATED in Termina, which would explain the incredible magical power. They don't recognize Link because Link defeated them as an Adult, so they'd still be alive, and they wouldn't have battled him yet. It's also possible that Koume and Kotake resided in Termina while Link was a kid, and Ganondorf summoned them while Link was sealed away. Which, also, explains why a) they didn't recognize him, and b) why they were still alive.

I think my theory makes sense. Having Termina be an afterlife COULD work, I guess, but then how is the Happy Mask Salesman there? He's not dead. Neither is the Skull Kid. I was going to add MM but it could be dead for all we know.

It was a great theory, Josh. It really was. I just don't think that it's possible due to the existence of currently living characters from OoT. Great job, though! I give you two thumbs up!

[germ1137]

We should put this question right next to the fact that there are a hundred Ingo look-a-likes working at a ranch. Majora's Mask, in my opinion, is perhaps the most confusing Zelda game.

[Hylian Wolf]

THATS CRAZY!!!
Eh...yea thats weird though... Koume and Kotake...hmmm confuses the hell out of me..
but you say Temrina would be a heaven or hell? Why would Link go to hell????? :'(
Well in my thinking I really don't think Link died...
The Koume and Kotake thing....wow I remember they had halo's and everything...well...anything can happen....I suppose....

[DekuNut]

But Twinrova died in the AT. MM is in the CT.

[the walrus cat]

I'm pretty sure that Nabooru's second in command (or Nabooru, I can't remember), told you that Koume and Kotake were Ganondorf's CARETAKERS. Not mothers exactly. Yes, they acted like mothers, or mother as twinrova, but they weren't' Ganondorf's mothers genetically. Because honestly, that'd be weird.

I didn't quite say they were mothers, I said surrogate mothers, which means they had no genetic relation. But you're correct about their relationship to Ganondorf.

[Seth]

Their are other Termina characters with the same name.
Are you telling me Dampe, Twinrova and all decided around the same time to take a stroll in the Lost Woods and ended up in Termina? Yeah I doubt it. So a few characters have names that carried over, whoopdie-freaken-doo. They are alternate characters, I mean Koume and Kotake don't over such a short time suddenly settle down, decide to be nice and make an honest living. They are complete opposites personality wise, they share names but that's it.
As to why some names were kept and others weren't, probably just for familiarities sake would be my guess.
Also there is zero doubt whatsoever that Termina is an alternate world, just read the instruction manual! Plus when he gets there he falls through a tunnel with all kinds of crazy lights and goes through a twisted passage etc etc all hint he was falling into a completely different world.

[princess-kikyo]

I thought that Clock town etc in majoras mask was a kind of parallel world that link had stumbled into.

It reminds me of that show on TV the parellax sp?

Anywho as there is a malon look alike as there are so many others that look alike. And so for that reason I thought that maybe it doesn't matter that they were killed in the parallel world.??

I don't know.

[Seth]

I thought that Clock town etc in majoras mask was a kind of parallel world that link had stumbled into.

It reminds me of that show on TV the parellax sp?

Anywho as there is a malon look alike as there are so many others that look alike. And so for that reason I thought that maybe it doesn't matter that they were killed in the parallel world.??

I don't know.

Yeah Termina is a parallel world, the characters there have no relation to Hyrule's OoT characters save for being their alternate dimension version.

[Dendrok]

I think I agree with the afterlife idea...

[pupairo12]

The one character I kept thinking of this whole time is Anju, the inn keeper in MM, and the chicken lady in OoT. She has been completely ignored. Also, Kaepora Gaebora (however you spell that) was the same too, although that just messes with theories that Rauru is the owl. And how are we forgetting the postman? Personally, I believe in the alternate dimension theory. I liked the idea that one guy had that the two worlds were created simultaneously and that the people just made different choices, but that doesn't explain the geographic difference. Also, don't Kotake and Koume also run the potion shop in A Link to the Past? I think that the producers of Zelda just continued their first role as potion makers.

Anyway, the two worlds are completely different, so the dual dimensions theory makes the most sense to me. In Oot, the Zoras reside in fresh water and have a monarchy, while in MM, they live in the ocean and have no apparent government. Ikana, that's just weird, no place in Oot is really similar at all. In Oot, the Gorons live on the volcanic Death Mountain, while in MM, they live in a village completely encased in ice and snow. The Lost Woods in Oot are solid and dry, while in MM, they are replaced by a swamp. Then, there is the entire nations government. In Oot, the King of Hyrule rules over the whole land, while in Termina, there is no unifying government, only the separate governments of the different races. Termina is also much more technologically advanced.

Now, for the similar characters, let me just ask you one thing. How would Twinrova get lost on a stroll through the Lost Woods and end up in Termina? As far as we know, they never left the Desert. Guru Guru is never seen outside of the Windmill Hut in Kakariko Village during Oot. Skull Kid's appearance in Termina is easily explained, as he lives in the Lost Woods and has probably explored most of it. Link, I'm not sure why he was going through the Lost Woods. If he really was searching for Navi, she flew out of the west facing stain glass window, towards the Mountains. Perhaps the woods Link was in were the woods on top of the cliff at Lord Jabu Jabu's alter. Anyway, just a question, where did Link's new shield come from? Was it a gift from the Hyrulian Royal Family for exposing Ganondorf? Or something else?

Please answer any of the questions I put into this post :)

[Seth]

Well for one it isn't even a theory that Termina is an alternate dimension, it's a fact even the instruction manual that comes with the game says as much. And Koume and Kotake are not in ALttP, their is the mushroom witch who makes the potions but that's all. I also don't think Kaepora Gaebora being in Termina changes the Rauru theory much, since I would assume their is an alternate version of Rauru too. But then again Rauru might not be a sage in Termina's world so idk.
As for the afterlife "theory" Link is not dead, it is nothing even remotely like that, read the instruction manual it CLEARLY states it's an alternate world, it was intended as an alternate world, Link stumbled into an alternate dimension which is 100% fact. As for why it didn't look like Hyrule that's most likely because they wanted to make a new and engaging world instead of just recycling an old one.

Edit: Plus why would Koume and Kotake be dead in the child timeline? Link never killed them in that timeline so it onviously isn't an afterlife. There is no doubt it's an alternate dimension, no other theories are really needed.