Twilight Princess Dungeons: Temple of Time

Axle the BeastFebruary 19th, 2013 by Axle the Beast

In my dungeon review last week I said that Snowpeak Ruins was the last dungeon in Twilight Princess that I had any personal fondness for, so you already know that I don’t particularly care for the Temple of Time. That’s not necessarily to say I find it bad, however. The word I would probably choose for the Temple f Time is… solid. It does its job, but it doesn’t really excel at it.

I think that’s a little unfortunate because this ended up being one of the most epic dungeon premises in the entire game. A hollowed-out tree in the woods, a lava-filled mine, a temple at a lake’s bottom, a haunted prison in the desert, and an icy ruined mansion… do any of these concepts really beat returning to an iconic location from the most-lauded game of the series by traveling back in time? You enter the Temple of Time in the Sacred Grove where you found the Master Sword, passing through a door with nothing on the other side only to end up in the past within the intact Temple of Time, with its familiar shape and unforgettable music. The ensuing dungeon, undiscovered within the outer temple during your journey in Ocarina of Time, should have been one of the most impressive dungeons ever.

The actual dungeon’s music is one of the better dungeon themes in the game in some ways, because it doesn’t feel purely atmospheric to me. It’s got a bit of a beat going on and accomplishes more for the dungeon than just thicken the area’s atmosphere. That said, I don’t find it very impressive and I certainly don’t think it lives up to what you’d expect from the Temple of Time. It didn’t need to be an arrangement of the familiar Song of Time, but something more iconic than this would have been appropriate, I feel.

Visually, the dungeon’s hit and miss. Like other locations in the game and certainly like its own music, I feel the Temple of Time never really accomplishes anything noteworthy; it’s just pretty basic. It does manage to feel distinct compared to other areas in the game, though, which is good. Pristine stone, gold trimmings, and marble floors all lend to the feeling of a place of importance, regal and sacred and well-kept, which is a good contrast to the forest-claimed ruins that it’s become in the future. It also contributes to this being one of the only dungeons in the game that I actually think feels like a real temple, and that’s nice to see. Visually, it does manage to look mostly like the Temple of Time ought to, but it doesn’t do anything fancy with it.

The most memorable rooms in the dungeon to me were the rooms that, hilariously, are some of the only ones in the game that look like they come from an actual real-world dungeon; I really liked the rooms that were darker, with dirtier stone. Especially the final chamber before the boss, where you have to run through an obstacle course of sorts. That room was excellent for setting up the boss fight, but rooms like that in general helped give the dungeon a bit of a sense of a darker thing hiding under all the cleanliness. This theme works well the prevalent (and gross!) spiders found throughout the dungeon, as well as the spider boss at the end. Unfortunately, that theme is under-represented here, and as a result of lacking any unique, particularly driving theme, the dungeon feels pretty generic to me. It has no real attention to visual or musical flair, or thematic originality; it’s a series of clean white corridors with a few dirty rooms in-between.

The Twilight Princess-themed Wii U tech demo showed a version of the Temple of Time that did manage to be visually striking, and not because it was HD but simply because they put effort into it. The Temple of Time could have had polished floors with a milder version of the reflection effect seen in Snowpeak Ruins, more impressive lighting like bright beams of light coming out of the windows or even visible past-landscape outside, among other things. It’s just such a huge missed opportunity.

Gameplay-wise, the dungeon isn’t very different. First off, the Temple of Time misses the chance to use any time themes for the dungeon, though it didn’t really need to. More importantly, though, it introduces several unique concepts without using them in any way that’s compelling. The dungeon is entirely linear aside from a few side rooms, which isn’t necessarily bad, as you solve puzzles along the way and must solve more on your way back with the statue you need to unlock the way to the boss. Unfortunately, there’s no sense to how the experience goes both ways down the path; the first time through, the puzzles are exceedingly simple. There is nothing complicated here, just simple switch pulling as you fight some enemies. The way back through is… much of the same, as you can now just destroy most obstacles with the statue. The only truly challenging puzzle — or interesting bit of navigation at all really — is the weight puzzle in the middle of the path, but even it isn’t really all that complicated.

It just seems so bizarre to me that this dungeon is so painfully easy both ways through. It’s child’s play far more so than any other dungeon in the game, and there’s no real sense to how it plays differently once you get the statue. You’d think that, if the dungeon was extremely easy in the beginning, then getting the statue and having to get it through the same areas would be far more difficult. Or that the dungeon would challenge you and drain your hearts with deadly enemies and obstacles, then give you the statue to satisfyingly smash your way through. But it never really does either of those things. I think the dungeon’s puzzles should have been extremely simple for Link to get through but huge problems for the statue, whereas the enemies and spike traps should have been abundant and highly damaging the first time through, but a breeze for the statue. This would have made the two journeys very distinct even within the same space, first challenging Link’s body and then his mind, without changing the environment or the layout. That would have been really cool, really unique, and just good design.

There are a handful of other puzzles beyond just getting through the corridors, mostly utilizing the dungeon’s Dominion Rod item to move statues around in side rooms, but it’s really only notably used to move the large statue, making it a one-trick pony for the most part, and not worth saying too much about. It was an excellent concept that needed to be used more, both within and without the dungeon.

While the puzzles and traps and navigational challenges leave a lot to be desired, the enemies are actually quite challenging. Dinolfos become abundant here, and without spamming the right Hidden Skills, they are extremely challenging foes. Even Baby Gohma, swarming all over the ground, can drain your hearts as you try to take them all out. But best of all is the dungeon’s miniboss, a unique and particularly fancy Darknut, who is the precursor to all the rest of the Darknuts that will appear in Twilight Princess. Darknuts are extremely challenging foes in this game until you figure them out, so chances are you will struggle reasonably against this miniboss while later obliterating the rest. That makes him an excellent miniboss for first-time players, though, and he’s one of my favorite battles of the game. Especially when he sheds his armor, dons a lighter sword, and moves much faster. It’s an unexpected surprise, and just a great moment.

The dungeon’s boss, however, is a total and utter disappointment that serves, unbelievably, as the clear worst of the game.

Armogohma is ridiculously, unbelievably, excruciatingly easy, making even the rest of the game’s easiest bosses look like harrowing fights for survival. All of its attacks are easy to dodge save for the one time it sprays Baby Gohma, but that’s only because it’s a tricky regular enemy from earlier in the dungeon. Armogohma herself can do very little, and gives you ample time to shoot her extremely obvious weak point with the bow and then smash her with the available statues. Aside from being easy, this isn’t fun; waiting 10-20 seconds for a boss to stop moving, shooting the most obvious and easiest to figure out weak point of a totally stationary boss with the bow, and then using a stationary object in the room to do the one thing it can do with plenty of time to get over there and do so… is just not a compelling battle. There is no stimulation here. There’s no challenge. There’s barely any input required from the player at all. To complete this battle, all you have to do is go through the motions and do things you’ve done a hundred times before, and in more interesting ways. Its music is also generic and fails just as much in being compelling.

The second phase is creative, at least, as you chase the weak true form of the boss as its babies swarm around it, and this could have been a cool idea (especially if the boss could somehow revive itself or at least damage you effectively), but sadly it’s too easily dispatched with the bow or statues, and its music is also annoying… though intentionally so and it’s ironically far more interesting than the first theme. If only it wasn’t so repetitive.

The Armogohma battle is another thing that seems done right in the tech demo, where she jumps around, chases Link, and stabs at him with her legs. A better version of the first phase could have still existed, but afterward it would have been excellent to try to fend off Armogohma’s legs as she stabs at you, while you try to avoid her attacks and hit her exposed weak point. This would have been cool in another way, too: It would mirror the Darknut fight. Just like the Darknut, Armogohma could have had a heavy and slow first form, then shed its armor and barrel after you. The silly chase could have still followed, without any changes since the boss would already have two phases to challenge the player. This boss could have been so much cooler, and an iconic foe of the series like Gohma deserves better.

So all in all, I think the Temple of Time is largely just a lot of missed opportunities. As I said, I don’t really hate it; it’s a solid dungeon and there’s fun to be had here. But it had so many things going for it that it never used and never turned into anything cool, that at the same time I just feel sad at what this dungeon could have been. Still, it’s enjoyable, and it’s a worthy addition to Twilight Princess’ lineup of dungeons.

But what about you? What did you think of the Temple of Time, its concept, its gameplay, and its overall design? How about the battles with enemies throughout the dungeon, as well as with Darknut and Armogohma? Do you feel the dungeon missed its opportunities or nailed them? Tell me in the comments, and look forward to next week, when I review the City in the Sky!

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  • http://www.facebook.com/debora.brak1 Debora Brak

    I like the puzzles of this one.

  • itsameluigi1290

    ‘Tis my favorite dungeon. Great boss, fun with the special rod item, great place to practice the Mortal Draw (On the Lizalfos), and the music is one of the few songs in Twilight Princess that I like. Great article mister Axle!

    • Lupine Hero

      *gasp* You don’t like TP’s soundtrack!?!? (great spin)

      • itsameluigi1290

        I like some of the songs, like Hyrule Field, all the boss music and Death Mountain songs. It’s just that most of the dungeon songs are too slow for me, and I like fast paced music, like in Sonic.

        • PRDX4

          I especially like the main themes of the Sonic Adventures (including 2006, though not an OFFICIAL Adventure and definately not deserving of the title).

          • itsameluigi1290

            Open your Heart, Live and Learn and His World? Me too, they’re brilliant!

          • PRDX4

            YUP. I love basically everything by Crush 40, but those are my favorites.

          • itsameluigi1290

            Same here. Crush 40 is the only rock band I ever listen too, unless you count some christian bands here and there. I don’t listen to normal music much (Normal as in Call me Maybe, Baby Baby Baby, blah blah blah) at all XD

          • The Unicorn Hanger-Outer

            I thought this was a Zelda website, but…eh.

          • itsameluigi1290

            It is, but it’s hard to stay on topic when a new topic comes up XD

          • PRDX4

            Same here. “Modern” music is diluted with a lot of s**t.

        • http://marjimusic.com/nwtb Clockwerk Orange

          i liked midna’s lament in TP, it gave you a reason to save her

          • itsameluigi1290

            Eh, that one was okay, but still really slow in tempo.

          • http://marjimusic.com/nwtb Clockwerk Orange

            i look at emotion in songs usually. If a song gives me chills, it was made well.

          • itsameluigi1290

            I get chills at songs a lot, mostly Sonic, but Zelda songs have given me chills before too! :D

          • http://marjimusic.com/nwtb Clockwerk Orange

            oh by the way. i believe you are the #1 (due to quantity) comment leaver on this site!

          • itsameluigi1290

            Yeah, I saw, but Neutopia has some more than me. Though he disappears off the list sometimes…

  • Nachoman11

    I thought that it was one of the best dungeons in Twilight Princess! man…

  • JuicieJ

    One thing I’ve never understood about this dungeon is… well, why it exists. I have no issues with the nostalgic scenery prior to entering the main dungeon, but… a portion behind the window that looks nothing like the previously-mentioned nostalgic scenery whatsoever? That just doesn’t make sense. The Temple of LIGHT would have been a much better choice if you ask me. That was only a place we’d merely seen a portion of before, in the Chamber of Sages. We’d never actually gotten to go through it. This was the perfect opportunity to let us do so, and Nintendo missed it by miles and miles. Probably creates some personal bias towards this dungeon, but even when I try to look at it objectively, I can’t bring myself to like it that much.

    So… I guess I’m with you in the end on this one, Axle. (Especially with Armogohma.)

    • Sean Sawyer

      Not everything has to make sense in video games. Have you seen how many questions Axel simply shrugs at in the Curiosity Shop? It’s not because the answer can’t be found, It’s because there is no answer.

      But yeah, Armogohma wasn’t a great boss.

      • JuicieJ

        The bizarre design of the dungeon portion of the Temple of Time doesn’t make sense in correlation to the Temple of Time we all know and love, and when trying to endue a sense of nostalgia, that’s the dumbest possible thing you can do. The Temple of Light would have been a huge compliment to the nostalgic scenery of the REAL Temple of Time, and Nintendo failed to follow up on it. And that irritates me.

        • http://www.facebook.com/tom.peters.5648 Tom Peters

          WHAT??? Seriously, JucieJ. You always find a way to berate Twilight Princess; I think its because it came AFTER Oot, the game you knew to love FIRST. This is a common theme. The first Zelda game I played was TP, and though I still like it the most, I admit the ways it is inferior to other Zelda titles, especially Skyward Sword. Honestly, let go!

          • Ganjee the Grey

            The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, is the heart and soul of modern Zelda. Truly an authentic masterpiece that deserves it’s mystique in the history of gaming.

          • TwilightSword

            TP was my first 3D Zelda game and is still my favorite one.

          • JuicieJ

            I have plenty of positive things to say about Twilight Princess. I’m actually currently defending it against TheMaverickk (someone I usually agree with) in Axle’s Snowpeak Ruins review. Just because I have a lot of gripes with it doesn’t mean I “always find a way to berate it”. What’s so wrong with me pointing out something I feel was a missed opportunity? I wasn’t even talking about the design of the dungeon itself, just the concept behind it. I legitimately feel the Temple of Light would have been a better choice than what we got. I don’t see how there’s anything wrong with that.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            Yeah I don’t particularly fond of this game in any way shape or form. I’m all up in TP’s business though cause it seems to be the trend that a lot of Zelda sites are talking about it currently.

            It was poorly designed what else can I say. It’s fun, it has cool items, a wide variety of enemies (sadly that variety doesn’t mean there’s a variety of of challenge in these enemies), cool ideas…. but a lot of the content falls flat.

            Although overall it’s a good game, it’s just not up to par with the design of other Zelda titles.

            Talking about missed opportunities is the least of the issues with Twilight Princess. Every Zelda game has missed opportunities.

            Where we can agree though is on this topic, I mean when a game is already pandering to nostalgia they may as well go all out with it.

            The Temple of Time Dungeon, could’ve even been called Temple of Light and then the premise becomes that it’s the dungeon the original Hero never conquered. Have light themes visuals…. I mean you take fancy light steps into the dungeon. Why didn’t they have more light objects and platforms to make use of. Or even like Axl mentioned maybe a few “Time” based puzzles where you have to slow time down or speed it up, or something.

            Mind you this isn’t the only dungeon that plays on nastolgia… I mean you have the Forest Temple…. but even it’s design pays no real homage to Ocarina of Time’s Forest Temple… in fact it is closer to the design of the Forbidden Wood’s of Wind Waker in that respect.

            Again though… missed opportunities is one of TP’s lesser issues. To be honest it would’ve been better if they didn’t focus so hard on delivering nostalgic moments, and instead just focused on the actual design of dungeons. Like Axl said, the actual design was just weak… simple puzzles… no real thought put into the design. Had the dungeon been more engaging it wouldn’t matter that the dungeon didn’t play up the nostalgia more. It would stand apart on it’s own.

            This sentiment could be said about many TP dungeons mind you.

          • JuicieJ

            Actually, I’ve stated that The Wind Waker is a better designed game in terms of number of flaws. It got many things right, whereas Twilight Princess was unpolished in pretty much every area, even if only minorly. The Wind Waker’s flaws are just painstakingly crippling, making the core experience suffer more than Twilight Princess’s flaws do. That’s all I’m saying.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            Yeah it’s what I’m saying as well though…

            The whole inventory issue of TP is actually crippling to the entirety of TP’s game design. The World, the dungeons, the puzzles, the combat…. it extends and effects everything.

            Wind Waker’s ocean may be bland to some (personally I enjoyed exploring the ocean, and found it to have more points of interest then many Zelda over worlds) but if they don’t enjoy exploring or simply chose to sail from one plot point to the next it may not be as eventful for themselves. Still the ocean itself is not a crippling flaw… it’s design makes sense, and various elements of the game compliment the ocean world design. Not to mention in many cases it’s praised for the bold sense of adventure it gives, many games praise it for encouraging exploration over many of the other closed up over worlds of other Zelda titles.

            Some people may not like it for personal reasons, but design wise the ocean is actually a well designed. Could it use more content, sure, but so could Skyward Sword’s Sky, or Twilight Princess’ fields, or Ocarina of Time’s field which are easily just as empty if not even more so.

          • JuicieJ

            The Great Sea is one of the most crippling flaws I’ve seen in any video game ever due to its travel mechanics. :/

            You always bring up the inventory management when talking about the dungeons. That’s not really a fair point to bring up. It’s an issue with the overall game design, yes, but within each dungeon, most of the items are used pretty frickin’ fantastically.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            How is the Great Sea a crippling flaw??? You keep saying it is, but it’s not. It’s merely an opinion. You just don’t like the ocean, you found it dull because it didn’t have enough enemies or you would’ve rather have explored on foot. Personally I ended up being more disappointed by TP’s over world then Wind Wakers. Sure you are on foot, and can ride Epona, but there’s nothing to find in the overworld that merits exploration. You have Eldin Field which is just huge and empty with a few obstacles, because it’s really just a big battle arena for two set pieces in the game….. you have these hallways that connect each field that you just run through with nothing to discover. Overworlds are for exploring and discovery. If I’m exploring, and it’s for naught, then there’s something wrong.

            Wind Waker’s over world has plenty to explore and it rewards you, with rupee’s, treasure, interesting set pieces, unique islands, characters of interest. It may take time to get there, but at least the sense of discovery feels good. Spotting that island in the distance and then setting out for it is rewarding. You feel like an adventurer using your skills to locate lost locations.

            As for inventory… like I said it’s fair to bring it up because it affects every aspect of a Zelda game. The inventory in Zelda is a big part of it’s core design. It’s why it’s such a crippling flaw of TP…. all those “Missed opportunities” in dungeons that you even agree with…. they are a direct result of TP’s inventory. Which barely make use of their own items, but all the others you’ve amassed in your quest.

            The spinner is fun in maybe two rooms of the Arbiter Grounds, where you get that fast paced action of leaping from rail to rail. That one large rail room with the heart piece, and then the boss room. You get the item late in the dungeon, so it is used sparsely.

            The Ball & Chain is similar as well an item you receive late in the dungeon. It’s uses are also sort of obscure….. using it to make platforms sway? Wouldn’t the Gale Boomerang with it’s wind have been more apt for that? Throwing a heavy weight across a gap to hit a platform to make it sway is really weird way to use the item. Destroying objects is fun, but it’s not really clever.

            The Dominion Rod…. should I even touch on it. This is not a “Frickin’ Fantastic” weapon. In the dungeon or outside of it.

            Even though these items are used decently in their own dungeons, and they serve their purpose… they don’t excel… they give you the obvious solutions, and you get to the end, and then barely use them again.

          • JuicieJ

            It’s a crippling flaw because you’re *not doing anything* gameplay-wise while traveling. The only time you’re ever actively doing anything engaging is when you stop sailing. That’s horrid execution of an overworld. There’s a lot of content, yes, but it doesn’t justify the size of the overworld, as there is very little content compared to how much space there is. The islands themselves are well-designed, but the Great Sea itself is an atrocity.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            EXPLORING is GAME PLAY. When I’m sailing I’m not doing nothing, I’m exploring, and looking for points of interest. I don’t need a mini game to make it more interesting. Even though there is a mini game while you sail, which is collecting rupee’s.

            Still there is game play, saying there is none doesn’t make sense.

            Do you believe just because you push forward on an analog stick that there is some how more game play? Even though you are experiencing the same level of content?

            Also do you know how large a sea is? That fact alone justifies the size and distance of locations in Wind Waker. If they were any closer people would be like. Well that’s strange, what a small sea… and how strange is it that islands are clustered together.

            Either way like I said, just because you have to push on the analog stick doesn’t mean your doing anything any more meaningful. The actual game play of Zelda over worlds is to explore. Wind Waker has just as much exploration as any other Zelda title. In fact it arguably has more to explore.

            Still to say there is no game play is silly.

          • JuicieJ

            Exploration itself is not necessarily gameplay. Gameplay requires action, requires direct input, and there is no direct input required while sailing to move forward. That automatically creates a lack of involvement in the travel. It doesn’t matter if you’re looking out on the horizon or noticing things along the way. You’re not actively moving the boat forward, nor are you avoiding any kind of danger. That defeats the purpose of an overworld. It’s the exact opposite of what we’re supposed to be doing.

            Imagine if, in order to travel across Hyrule Field, we had to play a song, choose a direction of some kind of moving force (all of which took 10 pointless seconds), and then had to sit back and watch Link run forward on his own. We could make him turn left and right, but doing so slowed how fast he ran, and when turned too far, he stopped moving entirely, requiring the song to be played in order to once again move forward. Along the way, nothing of real interest happened until we came upon an area that actually allowed us completely control over Link and had engaging content, but once everything was found in said location, there’d be no need to return there ever again.

            Now does that sound like a fun overworld? Probably not. Well that’s the Great Sea, just with Link running across land replaced with a boat moving across water. And, no, the fact that it’s a body of water doesn’t make the mechanics any different. The only thing that’s been altered is the environment. The travel mechanics are still horridly designed.

            The fact that it’s a sea also doesn’t justify the lack of content during the overly-long sailing portions. A Zelda overworld is supposed to have an abundance of content along the entire landscape, ensuring there’s always something to do around every corner. The Great Sea does not provide that at all (I know it’s not the only Zelda overworld to do this). I really don’t understand how you can criticize OoT and TP’s overworlds for being so empty, yet completely ignore that the Great Sea has the exact same problem.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameplay

            Gameplay is generally referred to as how the player experiences and interacts with the game world.

            Exploring the world of Wind Waker is a part of the game play. The people of Hyrule scattered and lost across the sea, it’s mysteries isolated and forgotten. It all fits in with the themes of the game, and it’s design.

            Even if you are being pushed ahead by the wind, it’s still the act of moving the boat towards it’s intended direction. The act of heading to the point of interest is all a part of the process.

            Also I have no issues with the process of setting a course. It works in regards to sailing. To compare traveling by land and traveling by ocean is ridiculous. Of course it would be ridiculous to have to play a tune in order to guide Link across land.

            Still it makes sense to have control over the wind and to be able to choose the direction it the wind is traveling in order to make a SAIL boat travel to it’s intended point.

            The process of paying attention to the wind, and being in control of it was a very engaging aspect of the Wind Waker. Whether it was in regards to using the Deku Leaf to fly, or using the boat to sail. Could Nintendo have come up with a simpler device or system to control the wind… possibly.

            So instead of having to play a song you simply press and hold a button and instantly change the wind. Still despite having such a device, it doesn’t change the fact that sailing is still game play.

            Ultimately I even find it strange how you separate land segments and water segments. Despite the fact that they are both a part of the over world. The over world of Wind Waker is a combination of both boat travel and on land travel. If you are enjoying exploring and traversing Dragonroost Island, or Windfall Island, it’s all a part of that over world. It’s actually seamlessly handled, as opposed having to walk through a gate way even and then the game loads up the next area. It’s also aspects such of that, which I enjoy about Wind Waker’s over world.

            Also for a final note, I have criticized the Great Sea, I can refer you back to that post if you’d like… I think it was back during the Arbiter Grounds Article. The difference is that I don’t particularly consider it worse then Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess. It certainly has a certain repetitive quality, something I’ve commented on before, and it’s a far cry from the better more fleshed out over worlds of Majora’s Mask, Link to the Past, or Skyward Sword.

            Additionally this whole argument began because I said that Wind Waker is a better designed game then Twilight Princess. Which it still is, because the game design is well thought out and the elements of the game compliment each other, and aren’t forgotten or under utilized. Every part of the game makes sense and the inventory and Link’s abilities are better balanced and accounted for in the games world.

            Whether or not you like the Great Sea or not really isn’t what I was debating. Which is all this has boiled down to. I personally don’t think the Great Sea is the best overworld, but I find it marginally better then Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time… which by marginally, I mean it’s really close to them, pretty much par up in being engaging over worlds. Still it’s all the other elements of Wind Waker that still put it cuts above Twilight Princess.

          • JuicieJ

            But the Great Sea’s travel isn’t involving or engaging. That’s my entire point. There’s nothing to it. You just set a course and go on your merry way, much like with Phantom Hourglass. Only PH has legitimate threats that require attention, unlike TWW. (And we’ve been over that, so no need to continue.) See, if we had actually had to take advantage of the turning feature to avoid obstacles and enemies, as well as have to shoot enemies down with the canon while moving (which we can’t do at all), as well as have worthwhile content along the way, the sailing would actually have some purpose other than a static transition from point A to point B that’s basically the equivalent of a long loading screen that you can mildly interact with. It actually would have been good. But it missed these opportunities and failed on every level as a result.

            In truth, I honestly might not be the best person to go over this with you. I’m not necessarily suggesting you take this up with him, but Axle would provide a much better explanation than I can, and I’ve said pretty much all there is to be said, so I just don’t see much point in continuing.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            See but that comes down to opinion.

            The Great Sea in Wind Waker is far more involving and engaging because I have more to find and explore the Twilight Princess or Phantom Hourglass. Especially in comparison to PH’s Steam Boat travel which meant a smaller world with little to discover.

            For me I was more involved and engaged by the prospect of discovery then mindlessly performing some act like bombing meaningless enemies. Which became a huge chore. Even if it’s supposed to engage it became tedious and annoying.

            I like more meaningful engagement then just pressing buttons. Sometimes pressing buttons doesn’t amount to anything. Just because you are pressing a button doesn’t mean you are engaged.

            Not to mention for me (and probably many other players) traversing Wind Waker’s ocean isn’t static. It isn’t about setting a course and just letting the boat travel untouched. There’s always something you are passing by, the question is whether or not you investigate.

            Also you seem to miss the fact that like I said I don’t think the Great Sea is perfect. I just find Wind Waker to be overall a better designed game over that of Twilight Princess. Also that the Ocean may have it’s issues, but it’s not a crippling one. Not does it detract from the core plot or game design at that matter.

            Twilight Princess has no excuse for how much content was missing or how many missed opportunities the game has. It had all the potential to have a fleshed out world and an engaging over world. I mean it has land, tree’s, mountains, ect…. and yet the best they could do was repetitive and empty scenery with little to discover. Not to mention a huge inventory of items to work with in order to create it’s puzzles and to expand exploration.

            None of that was ever used even to half of it’s potential.

          • PRDX4

            There was MUCH to explore in TP. What are you talking about?

          • itsameluigi1290

            A little TOO much to explore, IMO. I don’t like the overworld that much. Too huge, but somewhat empty at the same time.

          • PRDX4

            A little, but it was realistically empty. When you go to a big field, you don’t find things EVERYWHERE.

          • itsameluigi1290

            True. Like I went to the abandoned football field that’s near us and I only found ONE broken sled.

            *Ba dum tish*

            In all seriousness though, you’re right.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            I’m talking about empty fields with nothing but decorative set pieces. Outside of the core quest there is little to discover. Very few grotto’s, only two latern caves, one ice block puzzle cave. … things like that.

            Corridor hall ways that connect everything. There was more secrets to discover in Ocarina of Time’s overworld, which isn’t saying much. I know I’m not the only one who felt TP was a lot of emptiness.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            Fore whatever reason I posted this yesterday but it’s disappeared from the comments, if this ends up double posted my apologies;
            ___________________________________________________

            See but that comes down to opinion.

            The Great Sea in Wind Waker is far more involving and engaging
            because I have more to find and explore the Twilight Princess or Phantom
            Hourglass. Especially in comparison to PH’s Steam Boat travel which
            meant a smaller world with little to discover.

            For me I was more involved and engaged by the prospect of discovery
            then mindlessly performing some act like bombing meaningless enemies.
            Which became a huge chore. Even if it’s supposed to engage it became
            tedious and annoying.

            I like more meaningful engagement then just pressing buttons.
            Sometimes pressing buttons doesn’t amount to anything. Just because you
            are pressing a button doesn’t mean you are engaged.

            Not to mention for me (and probably many other players) traversing
            Wind Waker’s ocean isn’t static. It isn’t about setting a course and
            just letting the boat travel untouched. There’s always something you are
            passing by, the question is whether or not you investigate.

            Also you seem to miss the fact that like I said I don’t think the
            Great Sea is perfect. I just find Wind Waker to be overall a better
            designed game over that of Twilight Princess. Also that the Ocean may
            have it’s issues, but it’s not a crippling one. Nor does it detract from
            the core plot or game design at that matter.

            Twilight Princess has no excuse for how much content was missing or
            how many missed opportunities the game has. It had all the potential to
            have a fleshed out world and an engaging over world. I mean it has land,
            tree’s, mountains, rivers, lakes, ect…. and yet the best they could
            do was repetitive and empty scenery with little to discover. Not to
            mention a huge inventory of items to work with in order to create it’s
            puzzles and to expand exploration.

            None of that was ever used even to half of it’s potential.

          • PRDX4

            But in REAL LIFE sailing, the wind actively changes direction, so you have to pay attention to where you want to go, where the wind is going, and what’s in front of you. You also have NO control of which direction the wind is going, so to set a course, you have to THINK, not point the boat towards your destination and “relax” (get bored out of your mind).

            I would separate land and sea segments too because the gameplay is different and you interact differently with the environment.

            I wouldn’t call SS’s world fleshed out at ALL. It was completely linear (which I KNOW you hate) and the sky was FAR WORSE than the sea. Less “exploring”, more empty space.

            I would call some elements of WW’s design forgotten. How often did you HAVE to use the Magic Armor? Or the telescope? Or the boat jumping mechanic?

          • JuicieJ

            Skyward Sword’s overworld is both unpolished and fleshed out. The Sky is pretty barren, much like the Great Sea (only you actually have to actively involve yourself in the travel — which is much faster than that of the Great Sea, which both of these things make it better, even though it’s still not very good) and the surface doesn’t provide immediate access among the different Provinces. However, the surface portions in and of themselves are densely packed, generally free of hallways, and provide quality gameplay experiences, some of which are non-linear (although they’re only individual moments). It’s not the best of Zelda’s overworlds, but saying it “isn’t fleshed out at all” is a false statement.

          • PRDX4

            I didn’t mean NOT fleshed out, I meant not fleshed out well, if there’s a difference

          • JuicieJ

            Ah. Yeah, that’s a fair assessment. You should be clearer in what you mean next time, though.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            The game play is the same, it’s about travelling, or exploring. That’s the game play. How you control these methods of travel (the boat and on foot) these are different. Still the islands, the towns, the sea itself… they are still all a part of the overworld.

            Also a linear world can be fleshed out. Skyward Sword had lots of details, caves, enemies, path ways… you can’t go anywhere in Skyward without there being something of interest. Although most of it is quest related, and not something you freely discover.

            So yes… fleshed out world, but little to explore/discover of your own volition.

            Also Skyward Sword’s sky may have had a lack of quality content (numerous detailed islands would have been much better then the little dots of islands and rock formations) but it still contained worth while points of interest. Filled with locations that had entertaining diversions such as games, or locations with characters. Not to mention the game doesn’t force you to traverse the entire sky in order to reach key destinations.

            The Magic Armor is probably the least used item in the game. Still this comes down to how skilled you are. It’s only use is to help people who really found areas of the game difficult. Not to mention every Zelda has some version of the Magic Armor. Whether it’s Nayru’s Love, the Magic Armor of TP, or Magic Cape of ALttP and in SS’s case they replaces it with a potion.

            As for the telescope it actually is useful for locating islands, and points of interest on the ocean. Again as useful as the Hawkeye really, although the Hawkeye can be combined with the bow, which was a nice feature. Mind you I never had a problem with the Hawkeye in regards to TP’s inventory.

          • JuicieJ

            The telescope is hardly useful for locating islands. It’s impossible to miss them by just plain sailing. The only thing it’s useful for is locating seagulls to find Big Octos.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            Still like I said, on par with the Hawkeye. It’s not like they are required. Maybe people enjoy looking at things from far away.

          • JuicieJ

            I really don’t see the point in bringing the Hawkeye up. It’s almost like you’re saying “Yeah, well TP didn’t do any better” to make the Telescope not look as bad.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            Meh they are both lame for the most part.

            I’m not trying to say either is really that fantastic.

          • itsameluigi1290

            Yeah, just play Monopoly while sailing. Unless you see a flock of seagulls in which case PANIC.

            I found the sky to be a lot more boring as well. You fly so slow, the only real way to speed up is those stone rings.

            Magic Armor, I didn’t use much, most likely because my memory card got erased shortly after getting it. The telescope I only use for fun, not much else. The boat jumping I do when I’m bored, because it’s better than just sitting there! But of course, you didn’t HAVE to use it, which is your point.

          • http://marjimusic.com/nwtb Clockwerk Orange

            OCARINA CHEATS! the always go dash speed cheat is fun!

          • itsameluigi1290

            I played OoT on an emulator and did cheats like that. Like MoonJump :D

          • itsameluigi1290

            I’m not gonna say the Great Sea is a crippling flaw, nor am I going to say it’s the best thing ever (Trying to stay out of an argument here XD), BUT! I can say, as a fast paced type of gamer (Example, I love Sonic), I found the Great Sea somewhat boring. It’s not necessarily a fast way of travel, so I didn’t like it much. TBH, though, I found the Loftwing flying kinda boring too, IMO.

          • itsameluigi1290

            I don’t care much for TP either… and of course I mean Twilight Princess, not Toulet Paper. It’s kinda, I dunno. I like the items and Link’s design, but the whole Wolf thing is bland-ish.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            They just didn’t give the Wolf enough abilities to make it actually versatile…. and the abilities it does have are kind of meh….

            You have the attack multiple enemies thing, digging, and the wolf sensory.

            Wolf sensory isn’t limited so it’s just better left on…. mind you the few things you can do with wolf sensory is following scent trails, finding digging spots, and listening to spirits (really only used in those small sections in the early game).

            Digging is useful…. but so blah… you see tons of dig spots but the majority end up being either green or blue rupee’s… or hearts…. there’s barely any reward in the dig that after the second Twilight segment in TP I stopped checking them. Although later you can find some hidden grotto’s this way. Still you become so trained in the fact that they have nothing for the most part, they can easily be missed.

            Wolf form should’ve had something more substantial to contribute.

          • itsameluigi1290

            Wolf sensory I actually only use when I need it, it hurts my eyes for some reason :/

            Yeah, digging could’ve been improved upon, I’d like more than a couple rupees. Honestly, I wish they could have made SOME better type of reward, I mean, anything would work. But hey, at least they didn’t put some awful digging minigame, AFAIK.

            He could have had stretchy arms like Werehog Sonic! No, but seriously, I agree, maybe some Hidden Skills for him? Human Link shouldn’t have ALL the fun.

            BTW, are you new here? I don’t recall seeing your name before.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            Had there been more grotto’s it would’ve made digging far more rewarding.

            Actually that digging mini game idea is actually awesome. Especially when you consider how many other Zelda games had mini games.

            TP was really short on the whole mini game aspect. Target shooting was sort of a mini game but not considerably challenging… same with the Find the Cats….

            Link to the Past had a Digging Game, Skyward Sword had a digging game…. even digging in the Grave Yard in Ocarina of Time was sort of a mini game involving digging.

            Yeah a huge missed opportunity here as well with the Wolf having an well established digging mechanic.

          • itsameluigi1290

            Y’know, after playing the Mogma digging minigame in SS, a Wolf digging minigame DOES sound fun. The only other time I disliked digging in Zelda was in TMC, which had those mole mitts and using them wasn’t very fun. That’s just me, though. I might be 16, but my inner gamer is still 12 sometimes XD

    • http://www.facebook.com/SpiritReika Scott Reika Ripberger

      Looking at some of the responses you’ve gotten, I have to admit that most of the time I don’t completely agree with you. However, this time I absolutely do.

      Would it have been so hard to change the name? No one knows about either the Temple of Time or Light in TP. At least, I don’t think they do. Sure, the “Door of Time” (which should have been right before the Master Sword Chamber, by the way) would lead you into the Temple of Time, but the time travel, the stairs made of light, the fact that the dungeon part of the temple is well behind what we used to know as the Temple of Time……the only thing I can say to the contrary is that the Temple of Light was supposed to be IN the Sacred Realm, but that’s where I’D keep something to protect it from evil.

      Sorry…in short, I agree. It would have been a nice nostalgia shock for those of us who know what the Temple of Light is. And for the rest….well, they should play Ocarina of Time. :P

    • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

      Whole heatedly agree… for a game that plays on the nostalgia of Ocarina of Time… they missed a huge opportunity to create something both nostalgic and new.

      We only saw the Chamber of Sages part of the Temple of Light…. it would’ve been incredible to build on what little was shown from that. It would be nostalgic to see that room again, but then exciting to see a whole dungeon expand out of it.

      It would’ve made more sense then what TP delivered…. which was referred to as Temple of Time, and simply had Light Medallion markers decorating everything. The funny thing about that is almost as if they felt the need to plaster the symbol every where to make more “Temple of Light” feeling, and remind you of what the dungeon should’ve been.

      I always saw the Temple of Light as being on a different plane of existence perhaps parallel with the Temple of Time. In many ways it would’ve been cooler if the magic gate in the ruins took you into the Temple of Light… not back in time to the original Temple of Time. Like if that gate had been the entrance to the sacred realm where the Temple of Light existed.

      Oh well what can you do.

  • Nachoman11

    istameluigi, you are right!

    • itsameluigi1290

      Thanks, glad we agree! :D

  • Zachary Morris

    Armogohma has probably my second favorite boss theme in the game, only second to Zant! And while it was too easy, it was still a ton of fun.

  • Anonymous

    I like what you said about armored and shed form. What if the first phase was normal, and we had to break the armor on it’s back. Then, while most of the second phase would be like the first, we couldn’t use the statues to smash Armogohma, who would crawl out of their range and switch to ground battle. It would play out like the tech demo, and we’d have to expose it’s legs and either chop them off or climb the exposed legs. After grounding the big spider, we can climb onto its back and use the Ending Blow (which won’t kill this enemy, but rather break the shell protecting the Eye Spider within). We’d then go into phase 3, which would be the original phase 2. However, for both phase 2 and 3, Armogohma can call/summon miniature spiders that crawl out of the walls and either protect the Eye Spider from most attacks or help reconstruct the chopped legs of Armogohma. During phase 3, the spiders come out more quickly. You can slow this down by placing bombs in the spider-holes, but the spiders may or may not dig their way through after awhile. Bombs (and bomb arrows) and swords can pierce through the mini-spiders covering and protecting the Eye Spider during phase 3, but most other weapons can only expose the Eye Spider temporarily.

  • http://www.facebook.com/emma.k.inglis Emma Inglis

    “…one of the only dungeons in the game that I actually think feels like a real temple”

    Oh, contentious statement time! ^__^

    By all western ideas of what a temple is- which is largely driven by visions of grandeur inspired by gothic architecture, Catholicism/Christianity and the like- it does feel familiar and more likeable as a result. There exist countless other places of worship in the world that can be classed as temples, and they can be as convoluted or as complicated as they please.

    That said, however, there were weaknesses in calling the Forest Temple and the Lakebed Temple those names bearing the above in mind. The Forest Temple wasn’t quite so bad- it had quite a few central rooms, raised platforms and similar features that could easily have served a function for ritualistic worship or sacrifice. The Lakebed Temple on the other hand…was just the opposite. Maybe Nintendo cursed themselves by tying together any words related to ‘water’ and ‘temple’, but when a building is called a temple, it’s supposed to be a revered place and I never got the sense that it was that important from the Lakebed Temple.

    Like I do for a number of other Twilight Princess dungeons, I’m always going to admire The Temple of Time for its beauty, but I completely agree with all of the weaknesses listed- especially the boss. For me, Snowpeak was definitely the strongest dungeon in the game.

  • HyruleHistory10

    I felt that this dungeon play very similar to Tower of the Gods from Wind waker the same concept with getting an item to move a statue and ascending a tower. I too thought it was a missed oppurtunity to a great and iconic building

    • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

      Except Tower of the Gods was executed so much better, and didn’t give you a poorly designed item.

      Tower of the Gods opens with a very engaging series of puzzles centered around the flow of the incoming tide at the dungeons base. Certain blocks float and form bridges, and you have a short amount of time to execute adjustments.

      Not to mention it’s the only dungeon that even puts your boat to use. After you start climbing the tower you get similar Statue moving puzzles… except here they are actually more inventive, forcing you to take them along puzzling paths and carrying them through obstacles.

      Moving the statues also doesn’t require it’s own unique item that becomes useless shortly their after. That ability is worked nicely in through a song. Since the ability to move statues is clearly not something you will need after the instance (although the song comes in handy on other characters and dungeons).

      Instead you get the bow here and it’s put to good use for hitting switches and dealing with the many beamos and flying enemies that interfere with puzzles you have to solve.

      Oddly enough a lot of the content from Tower of the Gods made it into the Temple of Time;

      1. Statue controlling mechanic
      2. Weight puzzle involving statues
      3. Delivering a statue to room in order to get access final stretch to the boss
      4. Dark Nut is introduced as the Mini-Boss which gives you the Dungeon Item
      5. Beamos heavy dungeons
      6. Both dungeons take you to old areas that existed from Ocarina of Time

      …. if I didn’t already have issues with how TP rehashes Ocarina of Time’s content….

      - _ -

      • JuicieJ

        The Tower of the Gods mostly consists of great ideas with lackluster and annoying execution. The water rising and falling, slow-moving statues that are hardly worth the time and effort of controlling (which forces you to stop and play song rather than a quick flick of Link’s wrist) that tedious scale puzzle (which only takes a while due to dumb design rather than an actual challenge), and horrid accuracy with the Bow. Not to mention the boss is a complete Bongo Bongo rip-off (and a very pathetic one, at that). It’s not a very good dungeon at all. MAYBE better than the Temple of Time, but I wouldn’t say that with complete certainty.

        • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

          The statues in Tower of the Gods actually moves at the exact rate as moving statues as the dominion rod. No slower no faster. The difference…. the statue with the dominion rod moves slow then Link, so you have to actually hold up or risk losing connection with it.

          Where as with the command melody you control it directly and move it without having to have it tag along. Not to mention the statues are small enough you can pick up and carry, which also help shape the puzzles around delivering them.

          Additionally the song at least serves additional purpose through out the course of the game, as oppose to only being used in a single dungeon.

          If you think the weight puzzle of Tower of the Gods is tedious then I can only imagine you feel Temple of Times weight puzzle was twice as tedious… since you have to pass through it twice in TP… and it require the exact same amount of statue placing and throwing. Personally the weight puzzle was one of the best puzzles in a long while, and it’s one of the few things I praised in Temple of Time’s dungeon.

          Gohdan may be a bit of a rip off of Bongo Bongo, but he’s still different enough to keep it interesting. Personally he’s more of a challenge considering that he attacks you directly with a barrage of laser blasts, and disarming his hands requires accuracy… not to mention placing the bomb in the head to seal the deal as well. Either way no worse then how TP rips off Morpha, Gohma, and even Shadow Ganondorf. So if you are going to be that harsh on Gohdan I hope you keep that standard set for TP.

          • JuicieJ

            Um… it’s actually the exact opposite. Statues can get left behind due to their slow speed in the Tower of the Gods, whereas they move at Link’s speed in the Temple of Time.

            Whether you can do these things or not doesn’t matter. It’s a chore getting them from place to place, and they can’t do anything other than move or stand still.

            The song being used later doesn’t change the fact that it takes an unnecessary amount of time to use it just to control something

            The Temple of Time’s scale puzzle takes very little time to complete. Due to movement not being much of a function. The Tower of the God’s takes for f***ing ever due to having to constantly move back and forth and back and forth, as well as throwing the statues at an exact spot.

            His blasts are insanely easy to dodge (just run, he won’t hit you), and to hit his hands, you just have to target them, so accuracy is not an issue (same with Bongo Bongo, but he moves around like a madman, unlike Gohdan).

            Morpheel may have Morpha’s basic concept, but that concept is put to a different use, making it a familiar but fresh fight (even though it’s not flawless). Armogohma plays nothing like Queen Gohma. The only similarity is they both lay eggs. And if you’re going to talk about Phantom Ganon, talk about The Wind Waker. That was the same exact fight with the same exact name, whereas the possessed Zelda had some new mechanics. TWW legit copy/pasted fights and severely nerfed them, whereas TP took familiar concepts and added things to them (even if they weren’t all that great).

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            There’s only one small portion of Tower of the God’s where Link has to lead one statue underneath a glowing platform. After which he can pick it up and carry it.

            The other two statues are controllable by the Command Melody. For whatever reason in this state the statues move much faster, and at the same speed as in TP. Still being able to pick up the statues and carry them was a benefit.

            Also the puzzles around these statues for the most part I felt were overall better. Forming bridges, by having one player hold a switch down and then moving the statue with the melody. Actually… now that I think about it. That is pretty much what you do in the Temple of Time mind you. Honestly the two dungeons use a lot of of the same concepts and puzzles. Mind you I liked the weight puzzle better in Tower of the God’s simply because it takes a little longer to solve properly. In Temple of Time it’s really simple… just pile up the statues lines up right next to the weight until it ways you down enough to pass.

            My opinions of Bongo Bongo may be skewed simply because I consider him the easiest boss in Ocarina of Time. I mean I can kill him in one session after disabling him. It’s always a short fight.

            Morpheel’s first phase plays EXACTLY like Morpha. It’s a game of waiting till the nucleus comes close enough to hook shot, pull it out of the tentacles and then slash away. The setting may be different, and there may be more tentacles, but the actual way you fight it in this fight is exactly the same. What’s embarrassing is the second phase where you simply grapple the eye and just smash A, it’s ridiculously simple.

            The only real difference between Queen Ghoma and Armor Gohma is that you need statues to inflict real damage to Armogohma. Both require you to look to the ceiling to shoot it in the eye and then it falls to the ground for you to pummel (using a statues in TP, and using your sword in OoT). It plays out very much the same.

            Meh I will give you credit that Phantom Ganon in Wind Waker is the exact same as Phantom Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time… mind you in Wind Waker he is just a Mini Boss. He isn’t used as a final boss, like Possessed Zelda…. who only has one new attack… the giant Triangle space trap. That isn’t really a lot to call it a fresh or engaging re-use of a boss fight.

            Also outside of Gohdan, and Phantom Ganon (which again just a mini boss) what other bosses in Wind Waker are a rip off of past Zelda bosses? You make it sound like there’s a large amount. I mean I’ve got three counts listed right here on TP. Also even though I include Gohdan, he’s still far more altered from Bongo Bongo in comparison to say Morhpheel and Morpha. Which I even found a less menacing fight considering how much space and room you are given to fight Morpheel.

          • JuicieJ

            I actually was meaning those specific bosses, not every single boss.

      • itsameluigi1290

        Tower of the Gods is awesome. Though my favorite dungeon in TWW is probably… huh, I actually like them all a lot, I can’t decide right now. MAYBE the one with Medli (The name escapes me at the moment, something with Earth in the name. Earth Temple?), I loved controlling her.

  • Fang

    And what, if TP Temple of Time is ruined one from OoT?

  • http://www.facebook.com/tom.peters.5648 Tom Peters

    its not the MOST creative dungeon ever, but its certainly not as bad as you make it out to be. I actually liked the cleanliness and cathedral-like appearance, but a agree that the boss was terribly easy.

    • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

      Visually? I’ve seen the same thing before in other stories and games. I did however say that it has a lot of creative ideas in terms of navigation and puzzle-solving… they just needed to be executed better.

  • Ordona

    My favourite part of the temple of time was the chamber before. First time I walked through that door back in time the huge room, the windows, the doorways and that music took my breath away (this was also before I played OoT so there was no nostalgia on my part). The dungeon after that just felt…bland. The puzzles were solid, and darknut fight was fun, like you said, but bland is the best word I can use to sum it up.

    • itsameluigi1290

      I actually had backwards nostalgia, I played TP first, then played OoT, so I was like, “Hey, the music in Twilight Princess is the same as the one in this!”

      Then I played TP again and got more nostalgia XD Weird how that works.

      • Ordona

        I think I did something similar, although it was Majora’s Mask I played first after TP. Reverse child timeline nostalgia. XP

        • itsameluigi1290

          Lol. Oh, and since WW was the first Zelda I played, I had no idea who them peoples were on the stained glass in Hyrule. Then I played OoT and I was like, “OMG WHAT.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/christian.fields.39 Christian Fields

    i thought it could have been better but you have failed to mention the city in the sky dungeon which in my opinion was the best laid out temple of the game. the temple it self was well planned and the boss fight was probably the most rewarding one of the game

    • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

      Well I haven’t reviewed the City in the Sky yet. That’s next week and it’s my least favorite dungeon of the entire series. xD

      • itsameluigi1290

        WAIT.

        Are you saying you like City in the Sky LESS than Lakebed Temple?!

        In my opinion, lakebed temple is the worst temple in Zelda history. I hate trying to find my way around the place. The water temple in OoT was easier!

        • JuicieJ

          Axle has an interesting story behind the City in the Sky. Long story short, it was his “reward” after a hard day’s work. And by that I mean him going through one of the worst dungeons in gaming history.

          • itsameluigi1290

            Hmmm…

            Are we talking worse than Flame Core in Sonic ’06? *Shudders* WHY CAN’T HE RUN ON THE WALLS.

        • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

          I personally had more trouble with the Water Temple then Lakebed.

          Mind you at the end of the day some of my favorite dungeons are the ones that give me trouble. I love a challenge.

          The Water Temple has become one of my favorite dungeons in the Zelda series for it’s genius, and I hope we get more dungeons like it in future Zelda titles.

          To be fair I think they need to bring back a shop similar to the original Legend of Zelda’s … where you could buy keys to bring with you into a dungeon. A key crafter… so if you are stuck and can’t get past a certain locked door, you can always pay a hefty fee for a Key that gives you access to that room you can’t seem to find an elusive key for.

          • itsameluigi1290

            I found the Water Temple a lot more fun than the Lakebed Temple, so I agree with you there (Even though I got stuck there for 2 months XD)

            For a little while I wanted to have buy-able (Is that a word?) keys, but I thought it might cause problems for the linearity of the dungeon. Like, going into a certain room that requires you to use the item you got from the miniboss to get out (Like the door has a gate come up from the ground and block it from opening), and not having the item because you opened that door first. But, you never know, it could still work. I mean, I’m still learning about this stuff, since I’m going to have a video game company one day (I’m only 16, so I have PLENTY of time to practice), so learning from a certain game’s good points and mistakes is a biggie for me.

            And I just rambled. Sorry about that ._.’

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            There are other methods of gating players in a dungeon besides keys. For example having path ways that only open up using a dungeon item…. like how the Forest Temple has Eye Switches that unlock doors.

            Dungeons can be designed in different ways. You can have optional rooms and mandatory rooms. You can have paths that are blocked until you get the right item or discourage exploration through traps.

            The key issue is more like a “buy your way out” in case you are truly stumped. It essentially would be like cheating…. but to discourage gamers from making this choice you make the keys expensive. Like 500 rupee’s, or something.

            High enough those determined to save their cash will work hard to figure out and find that key…. but still affordable enough that someone who is sincerely stuck can manage purchasing it.

            Think about how many people who loath the Water Temple would’ve probably bought that key that they couldn’t find. They would’ve also been more likely to continue playing … as oppose to give up at the dungeon and never complete the game.

          • itsameluigi1290

            Ah, you make it sound like it could work REALLY well. In which case, I say yes, buy-able keys would very much work!

    • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

      The boss fight is really the only highlight of the dungeon.

      The actual dungeon itself has a lot of issues. The first being that it’s relatively simple for one of the final dungeons.

      The level of challenge is minimal… with the majority of the dungeon revolve around grappling from point A to point B. It may be more elaborate then a dungeon like the Temple of Time but it’s not filled with any substantial rewarding challenging.

      The flow of the dungeon is really bogged down as well, and this is largely in part to how the hook shot is handled. Slow paced Peahat riding, which isn’t really a puzzle… and again clinging to various slow moving grapple fans. It’s hard to believe just how much time is spent in these moments. Not to mention right before the boss key room, you use your wolf form to slowly tight rope to it.

      A lot of these tasks are actually tedious, and not challenging. Although a rare occurrence, even having your trip interrupted is annoying. I’ve accidentally nicked a surface before while riding a Peahat, and had to redo the entire slow slog all over again.

      Similarly missing taking out a single kargarok enemy while riding a fan can easily come back to haunt you and knock you off, putting you back at the start.

      I’m all for penalties for messing up, but then again taking a penalty in a level where it means more time spent performing boring tedious tasks really is worse then any game over.

      I loath this dungeon every time it comes time to play it. It’s dull, bland, simple, and nothing more then a series of tedious actions. The Double Grapple hook has very few moments where grappling from multiple points is fluid and fun. This is without mentioning all the missed potential of the dungeon.

      • Lupine Hero

        Really? I thought that Argorok was the worst part of it. In my opinion, he’s among the easiest bosses I’ve ever fought, ever! As in, “if I lose on a three-heart challenge it’s because I wasn’t trying” easy. But, once again, if you want to know why, you’ll have to wait ’till next week!

        • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

          All the bosses in TP are a breeze for the most part.

          Also I think Armoghoma takes the cake for being the easiest bosses in TP.

          The only aspect of Argorok that was annoying was the grappling to the top of the towers. It’s a sloggy and slow portion of the Argorok fight. I didn’t fall in my battle, but I bet for some people that did that slog back to the top is annoying.

          That said the boss still was clever, even putting to use the iron boots and then how the grappling hook is used to defeat the boss was fairly exciting.

          It wasn’t necessarily a tough boss in the grand scheme of Zelda bosses, but it certainly was more fun then trudging through the City in the Sky. Which really is what I was saying…. that the boss fight is probably the most engaging and highlight of City in the Sky…. which is kind of sad considering how much of a low point this dungeon is.

          • Lupine Hero

            Basically what I meant is that, as easy as Armogohma is, I feel as though Argorok managed to be easier. I’ll explain why in Axle’s next review.

  • Shaun of the ReDead

    I disagree a bit, Beast Man. The nostalgia factor was huge and brought me back to my OoT memories. I enjoyed the thematic presentation of the Temple of Time. I also found the enemies to be challenging enough. The boss fight with Armogohma was one of the biggest letdowns in the entire series, not just Twilight Princess. A great dungeon as this deserved a much better boss battle. I think this dungeon’s legacy will be one of unfulfilled potential. Until the underwhelming boss fight, The Temple of Time had all the makings of one of the most classic dungeons in the series. I just really wished the boss battle would have been against a Darknut King of epic size, speed, and sword skill.

    P.S. Love all of the detail and analysis in your dungeon reviews.

  • OwnerofTriforce

    This is a well written article (as usual), and I can’t really disagree to anything you’ve said. You bring forth something I’ve never thought of, but that’s because they are things that don’t really matter to me. But still, I just nodded throughout this whole thing while reading, and have to say that we pretty much share this opinion, and that you’ve given this dungeon a fair “review”

  • Master Broadsword

    But I liked the dungeon…

  • Midna’s Pet

    I Agree with a lot of it, Axle. This is a dungeon that does it’s job, but not very well. A incredible Miniboss, but underwhelming Boss. I say the Dominion Rod was kinda fun to play with in the Temple of Time, but it seemed like the Spinner. Use it in the dungeon, then there’s no use for it anymore. The boss was easier then I want to admit. It’s got it’s ups and downs, but overall, it’s just another dungeon.

  • Skull Kid

    I absolutely hate this dungeon. A nice word to use for itwas underwhelming. The only thing I like about this dungeon were the visuals, darknut, and the concept. Having the temple of time infected was interesting. But they did itso badly, put thd worst boss in any zelda game at the end, and made it insultingly easy. Why couldnt we have a fight the dark interopers? Dissapointment and ruining nostalgia for me with that stupid music, this is my least favorite dungeon in the series.

  • erikingvoldsen

    I will admit I found ToT to be one of the weaker dungeons in the game, though I found the next three to be some of the strongest in the series.

    • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

      City in the Sky, the slowest most slog fest dungeon ever. The idea of having a dungeon in the sky should’ve been far more engaging. This was a dungeon just lurches forwards awkwardly. I’m not sure if there’s even a clever puzzle in here… it’s simply about grappling from point A to point B until you reach the end.

      Palace of Twilight has one main puzzle that it makes you repeat twice over. It’s repetitive. Go down a corridor of rooms, grab an orb and then carry it back the way you came although you use some platforms along the way. Not to mention the low grunt enemies that typically are found in the first temple.

      Hyrule Castle is a joke because you can just skip portions of the dungeon. With really only a few simple puzzles like bashing down some barriers, hitting some propeller switches, and using the wolf sense to point out the clear answer.

      From Temple of Time on the dungeons just get progressively worse, and clearly were put together in a rushed fashion. They provide content with out substance.

      • JuicieJ

        The first half of the Palace of Twilight is actually pretty good. It’s inventive and kind of creepy with that lurking hand slowly getting closer to the Sol. The second half is almost as sluggish and dull as the City in the Sky.

        • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

          It wouldn’t be so bad if it was only one part of the dungeon. Still you have to do it twice over, and the paths to deliver the sol back to the entrance isn’t all that different between either section. They could’ve easily have created more elaborate and challenging paths. It’s not as if the hand would kill Link, it just takes back the sol.

          So there is no real consequence either. It was smart and inventive, a great new take on the whole ceiling master wall master concept. It had a foreboding presence, but after you know that the consequence for it taking the sol are so minor it kind loses it’s impact.

          I do hands down agree the second part of the dungeon is terrible. It basically comes down to a game of riding slow moving platforms to the top. It’s not a real puzzle, and again it’s just tedious and time consuming.

          Trust me it’s a tough choice deciding whether or not I put City in the Sky as worse or Palace of Twilight. Mind you City in the Sky is a longer dungeon.

          • JuicieJ

            It’s not even a contest. The City in the Sky is an absolute abomination without a single ounce of positive in it. Half of the Palace of Twilight is good. That automatically places it as the victor of the two in quality.

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            Except that there are expectations for dungeons as you go further into a game. Although Palace of Twilight has a more inventive puzzle and perhaps visually a more interesting premise then City in the Sky, it’s butt easy.

            Filled with low level enemies from keese, deku baba’s, shadow vermin…. not to mention the dungeon is really short by comparison.

            I mean City in the Sky wasn’t the most creative with it’s puzzles, but the dungeon overall is more of a challenge (again not saying much), even if it is tedious. Zant on the other hand is clearly the better boss over Argorok.

            Personally it’s why it’s a toss up. One good puzzle repeated twice doesn’t do much for a dungeon, especially when it’s the high point. Also it’s not great when one of your final dungeons isn’t a chalenge at all. I mean by the time you’ve gotten to the end, you’ve already faced far more challenging dungeons like Lakebed Temple… you’d hope you get something to do the end justice as far as challenge goes. That is one of the problems with both Palace of Twilight and Hyrule Castle.

            I have a hard time choosing which is better among these three. They are all butts.

          • JuicieJ

            Palace of Twilight. Easy choice.

  • Someone

    I’m just hating this dungeon for personal reasons.
    I found my way through the dungeon and made it to the boss door. Then I realised that I forgot the boss key. I spent two hours looking for that evil thing, and found out really late that I had to climb onto something. So hitting the boss with the huge statue really felt like revenge for me! Oh and in my second playthrough two years later,
    I forgot and searched that stupid thing AGAIN! (This is not the first dungeon in TP, where I forgot the key, but searching this one took the longest of them all)
    It was maybe a bit stupid, but this never happened to me in other Zelda games.

    • itsameluigi1290

      That’s nothing. You should have seen me get stuck in the Fire Temple! I had no idea you could break that yellow waffle-looking door with bombs…

      • http://marjimusic.com/nwtb Clockwerk Orange

        i would expect some syrup and butter to dissolve the door!

        • itsameluigi1290

          Exactly!

  • Evan

    sadly, I’ve never got to the temple of time on Tp.

  • hot apple Fi

    This dungeon was the worst in TP. Only because it had such an awesome entry way. You walk from the middle of ruins into to doors that are the only things around that don’t seem like they are rotting away. Into a temple that at firsts seems almost black and white. I was so excited, thinking they were going for a similar feel to WW’s Hyrule castle. But, was only disapointed, when all i found was a linear beige colored push over.

  • Ender44

    I really didnt like the temple of time. It was incredibly monotonous. Most of the puzzles were incredibly easy. And the dungeon itself was very monotonous.

  • TwilightSword

    This was my favorite dungeon in the game, mainly just because of how fun it was controlling the statue in the 2nd half.

    • Lupine Hero

      The Legend of Zelda: The Adventures of Mr. Smashy-Smash! (borrowed from YouTuber Olizandri)

  • notforyou-oo

    This was the dungeon where I discovered pots could deal some damage to enemies. I was carrying a jar to put it on one of the tile switches when a Dynalfos suddenly came running up to me. I freaked out and threw the pot at it, and its reaction was hilarious. I had to pause the game to catch my breath.

    • http://ZeldaDungeon.net/ Jordan D.

      I think The Legend of Zelda: Revenge of the Pots needs to happen someday :-D

      • Majoras Wrath

        They need to make “the highest balloon” first

  • Ballad of Twilight

    I loved walking in for the first time and arriving in the temple from the past. You’re suddenly seeing the world that the Hero of Time was a part of, and I felt that it was a great connection.

  • HatredHazard

    Axle has a point. If the dungeon had polished, reflective floors, that might change the entire atmosphere to something more…sacred, I guess, as the legendary ToT should’ve been. It was a short n’ sweet dungeon, the puzzles were fun, the Dominion Rod was pretty sweet (I personally don’t give a s— about items not being re-used)…but the temple just didn’t feel sacred enough.

    • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

      I agree. And if they’d done something to accomplish that feeling, then those darker dungeon-like rooms would have been even more distinct. It’s a simple touch, but I think it would have done a lot to make the dungeon more fascinating.

      I actually wasn’t referring to the dungeon item being reused (well, I did, but only in a brief note), I actually felt that the Dominion Rod wasn’t used enough or well within the dungeon itself. xP

  • Tito Burgess

    They could have done so much with this dungeon.

    • Lupine Hero

      They could have done so much with this GAME!!! It’s still my favorite, though.

  • JAzenPiece12

    in order of best to worst in my opinion…

    1. Arbiter’s Grounds
    2. Snowpeak Ruins
    3. Palace of Twilight
    4. Forest Temple
    5. Lakebed Temple
    6. Goron Mines
    7. City in the Sky
    8. Temple of Time

    • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

      Because it’s fun making lists;

      1. Snowpeak Ruins
      2. Arbiter Grounds
      3. Lakebed Temple
      4. Goron Mines
      5. Forest Temple
      6. Temple of Time
      7. City in the Sky
      8. Hyrule Castle
      9. Palace of Twilight

      This is more in regards to the actual design of the dungeons, although aesthetics and music and bosses and stuff did factor in a small amount. Still I mean boss fights are their own thing all together.

    • Lupine Hero

      From favorite to least favorite:
      1. Palace of Twilight
      2. Arbiter’s Grounds
      3. City in the Sky
      4. Hyrule Castle
      5. Goron Mines
      6. Snowpeak Ruins
      7. Forest Temple
      8. Lakebed Temple
      9. Temple of Time
      This is based on personal enjoyment, not how well I think they were designed.

  • Mseevers95

    I love Link’s face after the Eye Spider pops up. And also how you can smash it with a statue instead of just shooting it, overkill but hilarious.

  • Westar

    Right when I have beaten this dungeon, I said to myself: That’s it? Nothing about time? I expected something like the timeshift stone from Skyward Sword, but nothing… I believe i lost max 2 hearts all in all throughout the dungeon, ridiculously easy… But I liked the statue part, it should only have been in two dimensions with the help of the Dominion rod. (Remember, I thought about all of this before any Skyward Sword videos/demos were avalibale)

  • Kevin Yaniak

    I liked this dungeon. The one problem I had was that I didn’t realize you could make the statue swing their giant sword at first and was a little confused. The final boss was pretty bad though.

  • npatoray24

    i honestly always liked this dungeon, it could be because of how epic thefeel of it is. i will admit that the boss was too easy tho

  • DekuPrincess

    I very much agree with the overall “blandness” of the dungeon. I think what bothered me most with this dungeon is that the first time I visited I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. It felt like it was missing something–it was just too empty, and I was half convinced for large chunks of the dungeon that something horrible was going to either sneak up on me or drop down from above and suddenly make things more interesting. But it never happened…

  • Name

    Armogohma may have been easy as all hell, but my god it was satisfying beating the crap out of a giant spider with a giant statue.

    • Lupine Hero

      Especially after getting fried by its lasers for ten minutes like me… (see earlier post)

      • itsameluigi1290

        It had lasers? Dang, I haven’t played it in so long I forgot it’s attacks!

        • Lupine Hero

          I meant the beams it shot out of its eye when it was on the ceiling that set you on fire.

          • itsameluigi1290

            NOW I remember. Yeah, dem lasers were pretty evil XD

  • Supermagnum83

    Who are you to criticise the dungeons in any legend of zelda game and say they don’t excel. How many dungeons have you designed? Each dungeon in TP is crafted beautifully by extremely skilled at gifted developers and their reward is to be denegrated by whining fanboys because it isn’t up to their ludicrusly high expectations. With so called fans like you who needs enemies.

    • itsameluigi1290

      Maybe he just… doesn’t like it? He’s a whining fanboy because he’s not a fan of the dungeon? I mean, it’s not like you can like everything ever created by the same person (i.e., Nintendo), you’re gonna have SOMETHING in a series that you don’t like. For example, I love the Sonic series, but I hate the physics in the original games. I love Wind Waker, but I cannot stand the first visit to the Forsaken Fortress. I’m just saying, people can have other opinions on things without being “Whining fanboys”, but if this is your way of thinking on it, I can’t change that fact.

      • Supermagnum83

        Well this guy is supposed to be a fan but he ridicules this game worse than any sony or microsoft troll. Comments like “puzzles leave a lot to be desired” is just down right insulting i mean if this was coming from the mouth of Eiji Anouma the fair enough but i bet this nobody doesn’t have a clue about developing a game.

        • itsameluigi1290

          Out of curiosity, do you have any knowledge on developing games?

          • Supermagnum83

            No but i’m not the one laying into the efforts of skilled developers, I am grateful that Nintendo put time and money into developing my favourite franchise. I am not so arrogant as to dissect and compile every miniscule perceived “flaw” to defile the work of others. I am just a mere consumer of the LOZ games not a created, I have no credible right to lecture nintendo and neither does he.

          • itsameluigi1290

            Well, alright then.

            BTW, if you make a typo or other type of error, there’s an edit button to the left of the “Reply” and “Share” buttons, so you don’t have to make a whole new comment :)

          • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

            “I am not so arrogant”

            Except you are kind of being arrogant by thinking your better then people who are critical of the things they love.

            So yeah….

            Also consumers have every right to critique a product they paid for. Also critiquing a product is how we get a better product in the future.

            If people didn’t criticize Wind Waker’s visual style… we wouldn’t have Twilight Princess’ visual style.

            If people didn’t mention that they wanted Zelda to have 1:1 sword fighting, we wouldn’t have gotten Skyward Sword wonderful controller scheme.

            Fans who critique the games they love are just people who care so much about the series they want it to become better. To have more of this, or that, or have better puzzles and designs.

            They are critical because they love that much. So stop thinking you are so much better just because you chose not be critical. Not to mention there’s a difference between being critical and complaining/whining.

          • itsameluigi1290

            “If people didn’t mention that they wanted Zelda to have 1:1 sword
            fighting, we wouldn’t have gotten Skyward Sword wonderful controller
            scheme”

            Wonderful is an understatement. I had a LOT of fun with those controls, plus it could pass off as excercising, so I got to play it a bit more often XD

          • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

            They don’t make games out of the goodness of their heart. They put money and time into the games because they expect a return. They want profit, and money. Stop making this out to be a charity game.

            Comparing this to me slapping a charity worker is insane; they’re not comparable at all.

            This is me politely telling the guy painting my house not to miss a spot next time.

          • Supermagnum83

            True games are made for profit but a zelda game takes 4 or more years out of these peoples lives and i’m sure they take an immense amount of pride in their work. Zelda games have never had the best sales but nintendo has always given the series top priority and if rumours are true then zelda wii u will take up more resources than any other game in nintendo’s history despite the fact it will sell far less than new super mario copy and paste u. I appreciate their efforts and so should you. Anyway I thought the temple of time was decent dungeon but maybe I’m in the minority.

          • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

            Generally speaking, everyone takes pride in their work. I get that, and I’m not saying Nintendo shouldn’t either. Twilight Princess is a good game. That still doesn’t somehow mean that criticisms aren’t appropriate. Even if you take pride in something, you have to realize that you might not have done it as best as you could have.

            I’ve taken a lot of pride in many of my videos and articles as of late, but I don’t think for a second they’re free of problems; every so often I look back on my older work, and no matter how good it is I realize I’ve gotten better, and occasionally I make blatant mistakes and screw something up. It happens, and it should be talked about so it can be minimized.

            And again, I’m not sure you really got the sentiments I expressed in this review; I DO appreciate their efforts. I did not, in fact, think the Temple of Time was a bad dungeon. I would describe it as decent, though my preferred word is “solid” as I wrote in the article. None of this means it’s free of problems.

          • Supermagnum83

            I meant creator not created.

        • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

          “supposed to be a fan”

          That’s a very troubling statement. It implies some kind of necessity of being loyal. I play Zelda for the exact same reason I play any other video game: They are products, and I buy them to entertain me. If at any point I stop being entertained, well then I’m not getting my money’s worth.

          And comments like that are not insulting. You need to drop this idea that any disapproval is an insult. Insulting is being cruel and unfair. My tone has been rather respectful while stating what I believe to be legitimate criticisms. You’re really the only one who’s been insulting here.

          Whether or not I have a clue about developing a game — and I think I do — is totally irrelevant to everything.

    • http://ZeldaDungeon.net/ Jordan D.

      So… a fan of a series isn’t allowed to call out the developer on their mistakes? I’d think we have more than enough reason to occasionally be annoyed with Nintendo’s dungeon designs considering we know how good they can be. It’s the curse of being such a high-quality series like Zelda; we get so used to the amazing parts, when something that isn’t quite as good as the rest pops up we expect more.

      Axle’s not being a whining fanboy. He’s taking every dungeon from the series, giving it a good look, and saying his thoughts about it. Most of his dungeon reviews have been pretty positive (this is probably one of the most negative ones), yet you call him out because he decides to give his honest opinion?
      You just sound like a butthurt fanboy, which can be worse than a whining fanboy at times.

      • Supermagnum83

        Creating a compelling dungeon isn’t easy in fact i imagine it must be extremely difficult to accomplish. No dungeon is perfect but i have yet to play a dungeon in the five main 3D console zelda games that weren’t thoroughly enjoyable. He uses terms like “missed oppurtunity” making it sound like the devs were clueless and didn’t have the creativity needed to make a memorable dungeon. The fact is nintendo EAD are the best people in the buissness at creating dungeons and this guy runs there work into the ground as if he is the arbiter of game design just because elements don’t satisfy all of his selfish desires.

        • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

          I’d like to reverse your own question on you.

          “How many dungeons have you designed?”

          You’re saying I have no right to criticize them because I’ve never made one. But you’re being a hypocrite; if I can’t criticize them because of ignorance, then you can’t praise them because you are equally ignorant. The fact is that neither is true; of course I can criticize them and of course you can praise them. Just because we didn’t make the dungeon doesn’t mean we can’t spot flaws or strengths in it. I did both.

          “He uses terms like “missed oppurtunity” making it sound like the devs
          were clueless and didn’t have the creativity needed to make a memorable
          dungeon.”

          I… didn’t say any of those things. I can’t begin to know why mistakes would be made, but I’d never say clueless. They messed it up on some level (again I said it’s still enjoyable), but I never criticized their creativity, either. If anything I’m confused on how they go from the dungeons of Ocarina of Time’s to dungeons like Twilight Princess’; they’ve clearly shown they DO have the creativity. So what happened?

          “The fact is nintendo EAD are the best people in the buissness at
          creating dungeons and this guy runs there work into the ground as if he
          is the arbiter of game design just because elements don’t satisfy all of
          his selfish desires.”

          “best people in the business at creating dungeons”? Dungeons only exist in a handful of genres, so this confuses me. I’m also running nothing into the ground. I get the distinct sense that you didn’t even read the post since you seem to think my sentiments are purely negative. Even if they were, what makes me less entitled to say my honest feelings and experiences with the game than you, someone who appreciates it? I never called myself some arbiter of game design; you’re the only one using those terms.

    • http://www.controlpaddesign.com/ TheMaverickk

      Actually there is a way for those of us who aren’t game designers to critique dungeons.

      First of of we have a whole series of Zelda games to compare Twilight Princess to. How well does the design of TP dungeons stack up against other dungeons in the series.

      Also how do you think game designers become such? They study and play video games extensively to find out what mechanics work and which ones don’t.

      I’ve never literally designed a dungeon for a game, but I can draw maps and and plot a course of puzzles, and think critically about how I’d make a player progress through a dungeon.

      There are plenty of ways that players can review and critique how well a game is designed. In fact playing lots of video games and seeing what other games do right and wrong is the best way to learn such ways.

      Fanboys may be critical, but at the end of the day they still love the series regardless of it’s flaws. At the very least people who are familiar with the series are able to weigh out how well a game is designed based on their history of experience.

    • http://axlethebeast.com/ Axle the Beast

      I’m the consumer. I (along with everyone else, of course) am the target audience of the entertainment. If I don’t like the product, and obviously if enough people agree with me, then there’s something wrong with it and it needs to be fixed if its creators want to enjoy financial success. That said, I gave out a fair amount of praise, so I fail to see how I am whining. Stating criticisms is a good thing. For everyone to do.

      You’re the only person who’s sounding like a fanboy here, to me.

  • Lupine Hero

    I agree with basically everything in this article. On my first playthrough, this was the only dungeon in which I never got stuck, except on the scale puzzle. However, even though I agree that Armogohma was incredibly easy, it was actually the only boss that I needed a walkthrough to defeat. Partially from it being my first Zelda and partially from sheer stupidity, I spent about ten minutes (and a blue potion) trying to figure out how to get her off the ceiling. And, in my opinion, your description of her difficulty matches Argorok better. If anyone wants to know why, I’ll explain in the next review (cliffhanger!).

    • Lupine Hero

      One more thing, I completely agree that Armogohma should have gone melee on you eventually. Not only would it have been much more fun, but it would likely result in a much harder fight, not to mention much more realistic. Seriously, a giant spider wouldn’t just go back on the ceiling after getting crushed. No, she would get angry, and try to crush that stupid little green thing that dared to mess with her!
      And then I would start freaking out. Arachnophobia…

  • http://www.facebook.com/katie.barber.902 Katie Barber

    As hilariously fun as the Dominion Rod is, this destructive fun is only with that one statue you have to move. And the weight puzzle isn’t fun for me, just irritating. It would’ve been so much better if you could move more of those hammer statues, and the Rod should’ve had more use out of it in general. Great concept, poor excecution.

    I personally loved the Temple of Time’s design. I’m actually quite fond of linear dungeons, and I loved the change to a polished, well kept actual TEMPLE other than the ruins in the rest of the game. It was a nice, bright place, that was quite visually interesting for me.

    The enemies were a mixed bag for me. On the bad end were baby Gohma, with the fact that they ran away and didn’t let you dispatch them, then stuck up behind and drained hearts. They were too annoying and I truly hated them. And not in a ‘well-done enemy good to love to hate’, just ‘bad enemy I loathe’. Like Keese. At least Keese don’t drain hearts like this. On the other end are the Dinofols and the Darknut. I loved those guys, and they were quite challenging for the first time and remained fun afterwards.

    Armogohma was very much a breather boss, but I don’t complain about easy bosses. I prefer them, in fact. And I LOVED the second phase, purely for the truly hilarious whiplash to a Crowning Moment of Funny. The expression on Link’s face when he realises he’s not done!

    All in all, the Temple was mostly pleasant but with a poor item and too much irritation for me. As much as I like it (one of my favourites in TP), it could’ve been better.

  • DiddlyDoo

    This was always the dungeon I looked forward to. At the same time, however, I cannot say I looked forward to its boss.

  • Cinnamon

    To me, the word “boring” fits the dungeon quite well. It is not a bad dungeon, but its not very fun. There is nothing special going on, which is a shame since the whole act till you open the dungeon is fantastic. I was really looking forward to it. I remember when I finally came to the last room before the boss (the obstacle course) and thought: THIS is how the dungeon should have been. Or a mix. Like the Ancient Cistern from SS, where you walk through beautiful pristine halls and suddenly discover darker rooms hidden beneath. The darknut room was also memorable.
    Armoghoma was also ridicolously easy. It is a GIANT SPIDER, that is potentional nightmare fuel. Not having any close or risky fighting with it was a missed opportunity. Like you said, having to dodge her legs and making Ghoma jump all over the place would’ve been a cool idea. I really hope we get to see a similar fight done right in the future.
    Another thing that surprised me was the use of the dominion rod. I thought you would actually take on the role of the statue, and control it while link stays in place. I think it would’ve made it easier to come up with some better puzzles. Some statues could’ve had different weapons and weights.
    So all in all, its not a bad dungeon, but just a very boring one. Interesting concept, but there was nothing special about it.

  • Nick

    I think this temple was really boring, and yes Armogohma is the worst boss ever.

  • Roedburn

    I found it really enjoyable to smash a giant tarantula with a huge stone fist, but that’s just me.

  • MaoShan

    I liked it because it had a sense of holiness and mystery inside of it. I wish you had more opportunities to use the Dominion Rod in the overworld, though.

  • Idia

    I’ve played a lot of Zelda compared to everything else (which still isn’t that much), but I am in general a pretty terrible gamer who doesn’t mind something being easy at all. So knowing full well that some horrible second phase was coming up in which I’d run around screaming in terror or growling in frustration, I laughed out loud at the second phase of Armogohma! I loved it to death. He’s my favorite now, just because it’s so silly.

    The entry music was a giant blast of nostalgia, I probably squealed to my husband when I walked in for the first time. I can’t remember exactly.

    I do have to admit though, the later dungeons of TP seem really short compared to every other dungeon I’ve played.

  • Austin13709

    1. The the dungeon is an almost complete rip off of The temple of the gods from windwaker, exactly the same design, looks, and overall main point with the statue following you and placing it in a specific point with some type of control over it.
    2. The statues part of it in the boss battle was really dumb,
    Considering its the temple of time and obviously referencing it from ocarina of time. In my opinon it should have had a factor of time or some type of indication
    Lets say the boss for it is ghoma, or a fusion of past bosses from ocarina of time or something like that that wouldove been real neat, and to go along with this maybe thier could be like referencezilla here where you see like illusions of somethin of past games for this temple :P And back to ghoma, It staying on the ceiling is annoying too.
    At least more movement like the frog miniboss where he jumps on you could have been a lil better
    3.Nature would be nice like maybe a fountain of water here. Or some plants. :)
    Thats my opinon of this :D

  • RGT

    I agree. They could have done a lot more with this dungeon. I hated the boss, too. When I play a zelda game, I expect to be challenged, mentally. The bosses in Twilight Princess are so easy, my two-year old brother could beat them. TP is definately my least favorite Zelda game that I have played.

  • Omega

    Well, no use of time themes is not entirely true, the time theme used is that you go back like 2 milenia. the temple you find is completely unexpected, because you just stood in an overgrown ruin. and there is a space theme, namely moving the statue with the bells. I agree that this temple is ruther simple and the puzzles are more annoying than hard, but if you make everything hard it’s not that nice in the overall game.

  • TheFrostDragon

    I found the second phase of armogohma to be absolutely hilarious.

  • Linkachu72

    you kidding me? best. dungeon. EVER. i have arachnophobia (irrational fear of spiders), and i found it very fun to mercilessly slaughter all the baby gohmas. i also had fun with Minion (what i named the statue) and was very sad to leave him when i got back to the beginning of the Temple :’(.