Many Zelda fans think that the dungeons in the Legend of Zelda series have started to grow boring and stale after using the exact same generic style for the better part of the last 25 years. Some fans are fed up with the same old themes of Forest, Fire, and Water, while others embrace these unique themes. Then there is the debate as to how many dungeons is the perfect amount. Should there be less dungeons like Majora’s Mask and have thus super huge focus on side quests? Alternatively, should there be a ton of dungeons that each are distinctive from one another. What do you think? Did you enjoy the video? Do you disagree with my thoughts. Please jump inside and post your comments as I’m very interested in seeing what the fans have to say.
A lot of the things you said, would be great, but I'm not sure about the "12 dungeons", well as long as they aren't all dependant on finishing the game. I think it would be good if they had around 7 dungeons based around the main quest of the game, then having more dungeons as side-quests which could give you upgrades. And when I say dungeons, I mean as big and as free roaming as the main dungeons, just not related to the main quest.
I love the idea of an optional dungeon. It seems unlikely that Nintendo would want to put so have so much content be optional (so much being even a single full fledged dungeon), so I would settle for having even a half dungeon or two bing optional. But I totally agree that a couple of full scale optional dungeons being optional would be great…and if you earned an item or ability that would make other parts of the game easier that would really add to the open-world experience of the game I think.
This is very interesting actually, the idea of optional dungeons. I think it would be nice but I also think that standard side-dungeons would be a good addition… as long as they had some excitement involved within them.
I found that the Ice Cavern and the Bottom of the Well in Ocarina of Time were a bit… empty in terms of a side dungeon. I didn't enjoy them overly much and thought they could have done much more with them.
i agree with nintendo theyve been taking time spent in dungeons to make more overworld time. for example i just beat the temple of time in twilight princess in a mater of ten minutes bose and all.
10minutes seems incredibly short…. but ya, I get the point. That dungeon especially was very easy. It was interesting, but the puzzles weren't overly complicated and it was fairly straight forward as to what you needed to do.
ya and armoghoma i think was the easiest boss in the game
I agree with a lot of what you said about the dungeons themselves, I'd love to see most of those changes, the games definately need to be more open as they have become very linear. Better themes would be nice though, you can only have so many fire temples (unless you add a secondary theme as well as fire) before its going to feel stale.
Another thing is dungeon size. Most Zelda dungeons get a little bit longer for each dungeon in the game. I don't think this is a good thing. Most dungeons have one mid-boss and one boss then they just end. Its a predictable structure. I'd like to see them play with this to freshen things up. Also the 'get dungeon item, use it to solve dungeon, hit boss with it 3 times to win' has to stop, Spirit Tracks stepped away from that quite positively I'd say, but they need to keep it up. I'd love to see a Metroid-esque escape sequence (say from rising lava as the fire boss dies) in a Zelda game.
Dungeons that aren't blatantly dungeons are nice too, IMO totally underground dungeon are completely overused and I've loved all the instances where they've gone for less cliched structures and actually set dungeons in places that seem like real places instead of something purpose-built to keep you out. For example imagine having a 'ground temple' and above it a 'sky temple' and you've finished both, then later in the game the sky temple falls onto the ground temple and gets all messed up to make a new temple. I'd like something like that. If anyone has see the game art for Blood of Bahamut, you'd see an idea for another awesome dungeon.
Also I'd love to see a really large, complex and clever dungeon in a Zelda game. I remember in Tales of Phantasia there was a ~30 floor dungeon which was quite fun to get to the bottom of, something like that in Zelda would be amazing. For such a dungeon you could even have multiple themed segments inside and you could have overworld events open up areas in the dungeon and vice-versa, Zelda's dungeons and overworld are currently almost completely isolated. I like the Banjo-Kazooie mechanic where finding items/switches in the stages opened up sections of the overworld and vice-versa.
As you said dungeons (or the games in general) should be less linear, but I'll add another reason why, it curbs player frustration. Lets say you get stuck in Spirit Tracks, you are stuck. However if the game was less linear maybe you'd take another route or tackle another dungeon then try the bit you got stuck on again later.
One thing I don't get is why Spirit Tracks didn't have any dungeon warps. To me all this added was unnecessary travel. There was no good reason that most dungeons couldn't have one or two warp points that take you back to the entrance, but also the other way.
You were talking about the balance of overworld and dungeons and how there should be more dungeons because in Spirit Tracks the dungeons were your favourite parts of the game. Its true, Spirit Tracks' dungeons were very good, but Spirit Tracks also had one of the most rubbish Zelda overworlds to date.
For a series that has so much focus on puzzles, most enemies are stupidly straigtforward to beat. There is very little that doesn't die so a bow, or failing that stunning with the boomerang then hitting with the sword. Nintendo definately needs to improve both the enemies and the combat.
I'd say the new games need more balance. The two DS games had worthless, boring overworlds. Twilight Princess had an overworld that was so big and had so little in it that it was a chore and just like WW travelling without warps was painful.
The dungeons are currently pretty OK, however the overworlds are in dire need of an overhaul. They are seriously lacking personality and the sense of exploration you got in older games is pretty much gone. There simply isn't any mystery or wonder a lot of the time. Dungeons are all well and good, but the overworld needs a lot more work, maybe cover that in your next piece?
That's all, sorry about the total lack of flow and structure. Just dumping some random thoughts on the matter.
actually you CAN warp on WW…you must just beat a weird "toad" on a tornado and he teaches you a song
I'd love to see the idea worked out of how two temples (ground level and sky level) could merge in a new game to form a new temple… that one could leave the ruins of a temple, like pieces where you have the sky above you, debree and instable parts that may collapse when you walk under/over it. The Chaos Temple
In fact however this already was done in the Stone Tower Temple by flipping it. In fact there you had two dungeons in one
I loved it!
In the Twilight Princess, I liked when they made those many dungeons for you to explore. I also liked to collect the poe souls and golden bugs. In my opinion, the Temple of time was the best temple in the game for me.
i agree with most of your idea's, except with using a item you get, and using it in another dungeon. i mean maybe if your in the fire temple you can get a water based item, but if you get a fire item, and you need to wait to use it in a forest temple. Thats just to long. The spirit train parts were good by the way, i mean i can understand for you because you completely dissected the game, so did I. but for me they wern't bad because the game gave you enough to do.
Also adding on to the spirit train parts, that would be awesome if there was not-traditional over-world bosses/areas. Maybe a sky realm, or even a dark realm, with a dark dungeon. also, i really want suits to come to the ds. like i loved the idea of having the water suit to go under water. or the fire suit to go into the fire temple ( ocarina of time) like that would be insane on the ds. also i wish that in the next zelda game ( on ds) , they put Epona in the over world, And have you control epona with the D pad. first of all that would cut time, make you more involed in the game because you need to control her at all times, and have over world bosses like bounty hunters or something. thats my hopes for the next zelda game.
i say add more dungeons
well, i think personally that a balance between two would be the best, its good to have many side quest but at least 6 temples and good themes on them to have fire forest water and new themes
well, i think personally that a balance between two would be the best, its good to have many side quest but at least 6 temples and good themes on them to have fire forest water and new themes
oh and, there should be a larger variety of items, in almost ALL zelda games ive played, there is a bow, something to grapple with, bombs, the bottles, etc… thats something good in minish cap, you have a cape to fly with, thats cool (one of the items i liked the most) and the mole mitts, or in TWP where you have the double clawshot thats nice, or the hammers, in all zelda games i think theres about two
in TWP theres magnets to wich you can hold on to with the iron boots
I think the games require something new, something Zelda fans would say, "Wow that's different." But at the same time stick with the classic elements. Though the producers of Zelda can't please everyone I think they should add more tactics to things, and better exploration values. New items that you've never seen before in a Zelda based game, a whole new atmosphere. Maybe they could change up Links outfit a bit, i'm not saying take away trhe green tunic away completely, but I liked how in ocarina of time how you got the water and fire tunic and in Twilight princess you get the armored tunics. Back to the tactics thing I'd like the producers to present a challenge to the game, make it much harder to beat maybe add some spots where you can have allies help you, or whatever and with the bosses give them a smarter AI make them think more and change up there moves a lot more. Maybe add some items that are new, like a spindle disk, or an item that makes him invisible, or a flintlock pistol or something, I don't know. And give Link a companion like a dog or something that he can use. Add more side quests. Add a new plot, and a new enemy, maybe give Link a rival. Also in all Zelda games, yeah he gets the girl, but you never see romance develop, in Mario the princess kisses him, in Zelda its like there just friends.
they added new items in minish cap and twilight princess, the spinner in TP, the mole mitts and the roc cape,i remember when i played TP and got the spinner i thought WHAT THE ****???!! its a good game with far new items
Again, great video segment. I like this idea alot of news posts as videos, makes it a bit easier for me while at work to relax and listen.
Im glad you brought up some of the more "non-standard" dungeons like sky based and time based dungeons, those are always my favorite as well.
I think the balance of console-based Zelda games has been great (in terms of overwolrd to dungeons) – too much of either wouldn't be good, and I feel like Spirit Tracks fell way off with not having much to do on the overworld.
I would've really liked to see a Dark Temple (something along the lines of Ganon's Castle/Dark Hyrule Castle) stockpiled with new enemies at the end of Spirit Tracks. That could've been an excuse for my personal favorite weapon, the Hookshot , to appear. Another thing; why in the world would the game feature a miniboss in one dungeon, then lack one in another? I like what you said about the Sand Temple; what about an enemy you had to flip over with the Sand Wand like the big blocks? Personally, I miss Wizrobes. Sure, PH had them, but not like Wind Waker's. Cool, and they could even summon other enemies to fight. Let's see more of that for a change.
I wonder what the Light Temple will be like…
i think nintendo needs to come up with ideas for new dungeons and items that thelly use more than once (sorry for mispellings
honestly great job but there is more water then you said in spirit tracks in the marine dungeon
Well,
in general, I prefer more dungeons over only a few but it depends on how they actually design it. If a dungeon is big enough so that it has potential for almost 2 dungeons or if you have to go there for a couple of times during your journey, it's OK to have less dungeons. However, the role of side quest became too important in titles like TWW. I like sidequests but especially in this game I had the feeling it was very overdone with them and I felt the main quest to become secondary, because there was so much to discover that it just didn't fit when someone said: "Hurry up to do this or that, otherwise you will fail." that it just didn't fit when you could spend your time with fishing or playing minigames while someone is waiting ages to get helped by you. MM mask was an attempt to reduce this problem with the time factor.
The role of dungeons in Zelda is essential, that's a fact. They were and should always be a core part of Zelda but they could be more "open". Concerning the dungeon themes it's right that many things are repeating over and over again… but honestly, it's hard to come up with really new thing nowadays, especially compared to other games that it would either look like a copy from game XY or hard to be identified with a typical Zelda-like dungeon.
I could imagine, however, more complex types of dungeons where you can visit almost every room at a later time when Link gained new abilities and you always have something left to discover… a similiar concept the Metroid Prime series is built on. Also more than one boss and even special item per dungeon could be possible.
Or lets think of the good old dungeon items map, compass and big key. Does the map need to show everything? It could be unreadable at some parts (where usually hidden rooms or something like that are located at). And why only one map? TWW introduced a very nice concept of treasure maps you go from sidequest. Why not port this over to dungeons as well? Let's say, you find the global dungeon's map but with 5 gaps in it. Now you find another piece of the map in a hidden room or you get it from sidequest XY. As soon as you get the missing piece you can visit the dungeon again and now there is a new secret path you can use (which is of course blocked until you got the map piece even if you know the path). And there you find a room or a few more which lead you to a chest containing a heart piece or something.
And the compass… does it really have to show every chest? especially those appearing "magically" when triggering an event like killing all enemies in a room or such are in my eyes no chests that need to be shown by the compass. Even special treasures containing heart pieces or other nice items should not be shown. However, the compass could display the amount of heart pieces left in the dungeon but not their actual location.
The role of the big key… I liked the fact that you also need it to open the big chest containing the special dungeon item in ALTTP. I'd like to see this again.
Concerning the dungeon boss itself, they need to be more dangerous in my eyes. Come on, it's the dungeons boss and it has to be hard as shit using different strategies to attack you and also react differently depending on how the player reacts (of course with a save point somewhere in range, so you reach the boss quickly if you lose).
Heart pieces and heart containers: they are special, they are fine and they need to be well hidden (there's no need to have a future teller to show you the locations of them). And now I say something incredible: get rid of these heart containers! All you need are heart pieces! Even if you kill a boss, let him drop just a heart piece and hide as many other heart pieces as you need to get a new heart container (I like the concept of 5 from TW more tbh) inside the dungeons. One or two easy to get and the rest hard to find or even only at a later time (see my map pieces proposal).
you mean a map like in metroid? that you have a main map and there many secret areas?
in main bosses they can be easy althought, but MANY phases thatd be funnier some 3 phases and a boss could drop a heart container thats really ok, but the rest i agree
(…)
Magic in Zelda: magic items belong to Zelda. That was something I really missed in TP (the lack of them even killed the use of green elixir). There could even be another magic system without a fixed magic meter that you can double once. It could be a similar system as with gaining new heart containers by finding heart pieces, just now projected on magic meter. Let's say you can find magic crystals a magician can transform into magic energy you raise your magic capacity with for just 300 rupees each.
Oh, rupees, right: they are too overdone imo. You find them everywhere and faster than you can spend them, in every 2nd pot, under every 3rd bushel of grass, from every 2nd enemy kill. The most annoying fact in TP in my eyes was that I often were forced to warp out of the dungeon just to spend my rupees somewhere and warp back so that I'm finally allowed to open a new chest containing 50 rupees or such. That is only because all these pots force you to destroy them leaving rupees in 80% of all cases. That should be reduced drastically. Instead they could introduce special money making locations (even minigames are such locations as you get 50 or more rupees if you win a game). At the same time get rid of these extra money bags which raise your capacity of rupees you can carry with you or reduce it to only one extra bag at least raising the capacity by 100%. There's no reason for restrictions like these unless you need the highest amount to buy a special item (like the magic suit in TP). Oh, and please make elixirs more expensive again. They became far too cheap in the past.
In other words: give us a reason to spend our rupees in something important!
Something I really liked about Link's Awakening is the fact that you have no bottles and therefore could not store elixirs and even faries. Ok, I like the bottles and it would be nice if they return but at least limit the amount of faries you can carry with you to only 1 at a time. They are your life backup and not a reason for the player to be lazy by not using a life elixir in time and rely instead on faries that recover you automatically.
What Zelda really lacks are difficulties you can play with. Two difficulties should be standard and the Hard one is unlocked if you play through at least once for instance. This way you can vary enemy behaviors which can get challenging for more advanced gamers (best example is the spider boss in the TP temple of time… oh, horribly easy and no challenge at all!)
There was a time when Zelda was really hard or at least challenging for most people. With difficulties you could also control the difficulty of puzzles in a dungeons (whenever it is logically possible) so when you play through on hard you get a whole new puzzle challenge which was not available in other difficulty levels.
Well, this was longer than I expected now and most things are more general and not only dungeon-related but if I'd made a Zelda game it would introduce these features in one or another way. That's simply my imgination of upcoming Zelda titles.
well, it would be good to have a bannk like in MM and you are right about difficulties, and also about the magic meters but wouldnt it be too difficult to make a game about making each difficulty level different??they shoulkd just make it harder, or actually it may be hard but playerss have so many experience playing and solving Zelda puzzles that theyre used to and each time its easier, so nintendo should actually make whole new puzzles, which no one saw before, that would make the game harder
I really agree with the theme based dungeon comments, as well as having non-linear paths to complete the dungeons. To be honest, I would like to see the non-linear idea expanded to a point where you could complete the temples in any order that you want. You would still have to complete them all to finish or get to the last temple, but put hidden secrets in each that require the items from the others. You wouldn't need to find all of these secrets to finish the temple, but it would be candy for those of us completionists to have to go back through each temple multiple times to finally find everything. I know that they have to try to cater to all audiences but I would love to see more difficult and drawn out puzzles as well. I was really a little suprised with some of the puzzles in spirit track, a few of them were actually fairly challenging for a change. There was the block puzzle caves, but that was more of a novelty in the game, even though it was enjoyed.
I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AGREE!!
I like the idea of the “themed dungeons”, but it has gotten repetitive. You brought up a very good point about the Ocean Temple not really being ocean-related. It just happens to be in the ocean, so it’s the Ocean Temple. Nintendo used to have very good themed dungeons that went along with, well, the theme, but now it’s like this: “Oh, let’s put this temple in the Ocean Realm and call it the Ocean Temple because it’s underwater!” I’m doing a pretty bad job trying to explain, but sometimes Nintendo seems to be making normal temples and placing them in different “themed” areas in Hyrule.
I really liked the idea of the “Megaman approach”. It’s very repetitive getting the item and using it against the boss. It would also be nice to go in the dungeons without any specific order, which would help the “Megaman”-like way of fighting bosses. Possible with the item from the dungeon, but easier when it’s like water vs. fire.
(continued)
On the topic of non-linear things in dungeons, I agree that dungeons are too straightforward.
I loved the Sand Temple in Spirit Tracks too, but I was a little put off because it was just part of the Ocean Realm. It felt like Nintendo wanted to stretch the game out at the last minute and added another temple. Since there was no room for another realm, they just added a sandy area to one.
That’s about all I can think of to discuss about dungeons at the moment.
I agree that the forest temple in twilight princess was the best in the game, and in my opinion, best in the series. Personally, I think that TP was better than OoT.
I liked the whole Forest-Fire-Water of the first dungeons, it reminds me of Pokemon!
I liked the whole linearity of the dungeons, finding the weapon you need to defeat the boss, find the key, get to the overworld, find the next dungeon and so forth. What I'd personally love to see in dungeons is new themes and maybe more rooms. Twilight Princess, which is my favorite, introduced a city in the sky, which I thought was an awesome idea for a dungeon. Maybe more enemies associated with the theme is a better idea, the only enemies in the Lakebed Temple associated with water were skeletal fishes.
As for the Mega Man theme, I'd think that the item you get in the previous dungeon defeats the boss you're gonna face and the new item defeat the next boss, or something like that. I do agree with the whole "One defeats a certain boss" thing.
So, more themes, more dungeons, more villains associated with the themes and keep that simple, straightforward linearity because it reminds me of story arcs from a comic or a TV show… (Not THAT show)
all of your ideas are great. One thing i think they should take outis the water temple. take oot or mm for example, it was by far the longest temple in the game. It wasn't the hardest but it was long. In mm you had a time limit. Not only that but it was the longest temple but you had a time limit.
Those temples just pissed me off.
Those temples were great! And why does everyone hate majoras mask for the time limit?!!? If you play the inverted song of time once, which you automatically at the beginning of the game, you have a huge amount of time to do pretty much everything! Game would be annoying without it I guess.
New temples should definatly have themes for most of them, how boring would it be to walk through 8 dungeons that all had the same feel to them, nintendo just needs to get more creative on how they implement the elements, and I don't want forest, fire , water first, its annoying, they could do double themes, those are always interesting, like snowpeak temple with the ice and the fire. They could easily mix it up. And no more linear-ness! That destroys what zelda was. A game to explore. Whats exploring if the path is set up right before your eyes, its like walking into a forest but only allowed to stay on the path….. oh, I guess twilight princess did that too, common nintendo! Whats your problem!
K, I'm done complaining
I think tehy should let you switch swords and shields like in OoT and different, more useful items. I mean, a SHOVEL in PH?! Really! Also, new means of transportation. Iw would also be great if it could continue on the TP timeline.
And they should let you merge objects too! Like the bomb + boomerang equals EXPLODING BOOMERANG UPON CONTACT! Kinda like kirby 64's idea of merging powers
I watched the whole video and I agree with everything you said. I think the theme should be more enhanced and more clear. For example:
The Forest Temple from Ocarina of Time was a great dungeon, but I probably wouldn't be able to tell what the theme was if I didn't know the name. The enemies and the boss had barely no forest theme. There were some trees and such, but it wasn't enough to make the theme clear and vivid.
I think in future Zelda games, Nintendo should tear down the idea of the dungeon themes and kind of rethink the idea. It's not that I don't like the idea, I just think there's room for improvement.